Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

skintmacflint

Leanne1812 wrote: »

You know I'm SNP and I will continue to be so as long as I feel they are the best party to lead Scotland. They're not perfect and I have voiced concern about some policies but the other parties will condemn when they may well have made the same choices themselves ( Police Scotland for 1) Are you willing to share who you feel might do a better job, who is credible that the people will get behind?

My main problem in trying to answer your question is due to the framework within you've asked it.ie 'lead Scorland' , or 'the people' which I take to refer to Scottish only.

At least not without writing an essay my rural connection won't support, and you likely won't want to read.

Generali

Shakethedisease wrote: »

SNP has used income tax powers ? News to me...and just about everyone else in Scotland.

Is this another one of these Twitter jokes or did you not read what I wrote?

The SNP Government has used its devolved powers to change SDLT or LBTT as it is known in Scotland. There are many, many taxes in Scotland AIUI, not just income tax.

If you can lower yourself to read the website of a Unionist rag:

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/dec/03/george-osborne-stamp-duty-reform-key-facts-autumn-statement

The lowest rate of tax kicks in earlier, but after that it is much more generous. In Scotland from April 2015 stamp duty is being replaced by Land and Building Transaction Tax (LBTT), which will be applied like income tax. There will be a tax-free allowance of £135,000 on each transaction. Above that there are three bands:
• Between £135,001 and £250,000 the rate is 2%;
• Between £250,001 and £1m it is 10%;
• Above £1m the rate is 12%.

So the Scottish Government can and has changed the way 'stamp duty' is collected, IMHO for the better. Let's stop pretending that the Government in Scotland can't change taxes.

The changes that are coming to the way that income taxes can be varied takes away the fig leaf that the SNP use to state that they can't use those powers. Under the new system, the Scottish-only part of income tax will be collected by HMRC. It will be up to the Scottish Government to decide what rate the tax should be set at.

It's starting to look to me that with the Scotland Bill and The Vow the UK Government rather saw the SNP coming and has made changes to de-legitimise the whines that come from Holyrood under the present Government.

The SNP is increasingly going to have nothing to fall back on except outright lies to defend its position of not raising taxes to reverse Tory Austerity. Or raise taxes and thus end the pretense that Scotland can live in a Socialist paradise for free.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Generali wrote: »

The SNP is increasingly going to have nothing to fall back on except outright lies to defend its position of not raising taxes to reverse Tory Austerity. Or raise taxes and thus end the pretense that Scotland can live in a Socialist paradise for free.

Indeed.

HMRC are now going to collect Scottish taxes on Holyrood's behalf for a fee of a few million quid a year.

No upper limit to tax, or the SNP can even lower it if they want by up to 10p in the pound.

No more excuses.

If they want to spend then they can tax to do so.

skintmacflint

Shakethedisease wrote: »

And as pointed out the Scottish Govt aren't getting to 'do what they like' and won't be fully in control. Income tax and welfare will still be mostly reserved
.

Because the majority of Scots chose to leave or as has been stated , continue to lend those reserved powers to Westminster for another generation.

Mistermeaner

zagubov wrote: »

You wouldn't go flying in plane with one wing, or parachuting with half a parachute.

What a ridiculous analogy.

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

Is this another one of these Twitter jokes or did you not read what I wrote?

The SNP Government has used its devolved powers to change SDLT or LBTT as it is known in Scotland. There are many, many taxes in Scotland AIUI, not just income tax.

If you can lower yourself to read the website of a Unionist rag:

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/dec/03/george-osborne-stamp-duty-reform-key-facts-autumn-statement



So the Scottish Government can and has changed the way 'stamp duty' is collected, IMHO for the better. Let's stop pretending that the Government in Scotland can't change taxes.

The changes that are coming to the way that income taxes can be varied takes away the fig leaf that the SNP use to state that they can't use those powers. Under the new system, the Scottish-only part of income tax will be collected by HMRC. It will be up to the Scottish Government to decide what rate the tax should be set at.

It's starting to look to me that with the Scotland Bill and The Vow the UK Government rather saw the SNP coming and has made changes to de-legitimise the whines that come from Holyrood under the present Government.

The SNP is increasingly going to have nothing to fall back on except outright lies to defend its position of not raising taxes to reverse Tory Austerity. Or raise taxes and thus end the pretense that Scotland can live in a Socialist paradise for free.

Nice try. But we've just spent the last two or three pages discussing income tax. And whatever your view, income tax is the one that everyone takes notice of. Hamish just said so ! Because it affects everyone over a certain threshold. Unlike stamp duty.

The SNP don't need to 'fall back' and defend it's position of not raising taxed to reverse Tory austerity. Because the fact of the matter is.. ( do you even read posts before commenting ? )... that when the Smith Commission was going through.. Labour and the Tories blocked most of the powers the Scottish Govt wanted. And have continued to do so with the Scotland bill.

The Tories are only able to implement 'austerity' policies UK wide because they are reserved matters. Yet you are stating that the Scottish Govt should use limited devolved powers to reverse policies that are still reserved. You don't make any sense whatsoever..... Because if the SNP were able to 'reverse' reserved to Westminster policies... then they would in actual fact have to be devolved first ? It's not rocket science. It's very basic stuff, which you seem somehow unable or unwilling to understand.

* clue. Stamp duty is now IS devolved and has been changed to suit as soon as the Scottish Govt got the powers to do so. Swinney can't wait to get his hands on more powers. But he won't cut of his nose to spite his face by trying to justify fantasy politics, legalities and economics such as you ( and Scottish Labour ) are trying to. Reserved = 'no power to change'.

Shakethedisease

skintmacflint wrote: »

Because the majority of Scots chose to leave or as has been stated , continue to lend those reserved powers to Westminster for another generation.

Scottish Labour didn't get the memo.

Severin Carrell Verified account ‏@severincarrell BREAKING @scottishlabour votes heavily to scrap #Trident renewal with 70% in favour #scotlab15

Trouble ahead for this UK vote. Scottish Labour against Trident renewal + Ian Murray + Scottish SNP MSP's + SNP at Westminster + the UK Labour leader....

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Nice try. But we've just spent the last two or three pages discussing income tax. And whatever your view, income tax is the one that everyone takes notice of. Hamish just said so ! Because it affects everyone over a certain threshold. Unlike stamp duty.

The SNP don't need to 'fall back' and defend it's position of not raising taxed to reverse Tory austerity. Because the fact of the matter is.. ( do you even read posts before commenting ? )... that when the Smith Commission was going through.. Labour and the Tories blocked most of the powers the Scottish Govt wanted. And have continued to do so with the Scotland bill.

The Tories are only able to implement 'austerity' policies UK wide because they are reserved matters. Yet you are stating that the Scottish Govt should use limited devolved powers to reverse policies that are still reserved. You don't make any sense whatsoever..... Because if the SNP were able to 'reverse' reserved to Westminster policies... then they would in actual fact have to be devolved first ? It's not rocket science. It's very basic stuff, which you seem somehow unable or unwilling to understand.

* clue. Stamp duty is now IS devolved and has been changed to suit as soon as the Scottish Govt got the powers to do so. Swinney can't wait to get his hands on more powers. But he won't cut of his nose to spite his face by trying to justify fantasy politics, legalities and economics such as you ( and Scottish Labour ) are trying to. Reserved = 'no power to change'.

one might think that the SNP would wish to do the best for the scottish people
if they consider that the 'poor ' ought to have further financial support then surely they should be wiling to raise income tax and use the money appropriately to achieve these goals.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Shakethedisease wrote: »

And whatever your view, income tax is the one that everyone takes notice of. Hamish just said so ! Because it affects everyone over a certain threshold. .

So why do you support politicians using stealth taxes instead of the more visible and transparent income taxes?

I'll slam the Tories for doing it just as much as I would the SNP or Labour.

What is needed is an honest debate.

Scottish people can have higher spending on services and benefits, and avoid further cuts, but it needs to be paid for with higher taxes.

Or we can keep the same level of taxes and continue with the currently planned cuts to services and benefits.

It's even possible for us to reduce taxes if we manage to decrease the costs of services and benefits further.

But that link between the tax you pay and the services and benefits you get has to be very clear to people.

There is no better way to do that than via income tax.

You keep trying to frame this argument in anti-Tory political terms Shakey, and that is dishonest as it matters not one bit who is elected, the hard economic choices between the level of tax and the level of spend remain exactly the same.

The SNP have a real opportunity here to be different Shakey, to truly be honest and open about this choice between the taxes people pay and the spending of government by using the very transparent income tax regime instead of reverting to the sneaky and underhand stealth taxes of New Labour and the Tories.

Why wouldn't you celebrate that?

Shakethedisease

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

So why do you support politicians using stealth taxes instead of the more visible and transparent income taxes?

I'll slam the Tories for doing it just as much as I would the SNP or Labour.

What is needed is an honest debate.

Scottish people can have higher spending on services and benefits, and avoid further cuts, but it needs to be paid for with higher taxes.

Or we can keep the same level of taxes and continue with the currently planned cuts to services and benefits.

It's even possible for us to reduce taxes if we manage to decrease the costs of services and benefits further.

But that link between the tax you pay and the services and benefits you get has to be very clear to people.

There is no better way to do that than via income tax.

You keep trying to frame this argument in anti-Tory political terms Shakey, and that is dishonest as it matters not one bit who is elected, the hard economic choices between the level of tax and the level of spend remain exactly the same.

The SNP have a real opportunity here to be different Shakey, to truly be honest and open about this choice between the taxes people pay and the spending of government by using the very transparent income tax regime instead of reverting to the sneaky and underhand stealth taxes of New Labour and the Tories.

Why wouldn't you celebrate that?

The SNP need the powers to 'be different'. It doesn't matter what anyone supports in terms of stealth v's income tax. New tax powers aren't coming in until 2016 ( across the board ) and whenever afterwards the new Scotland Bill comes into force.

Swinney hasn't ruled anything out apart from stating upfront that he won't be reversing any tax credits cuts. He doesn't have the powers as they're administered through the tax system on an individual basis. In fact it's debatable with Universal Credits coming in that tax credits will even be around when the Scottish Govt get tax powers anyway. We'll have to wait for the 2016 manifestos to see what the individual parties have to say. Swinney might have something up his sleeve. Dugdale is already talking about 50p tax rates etc... but she's referring to tax powers coming with the Scotland Bill going through parliament right now, not the 2016 powers.. Variable income tax powers are way off in the future by a couple of years at least. Dugdale is counting on the confusion between the two different Scotland Bills.

What is also misleading and confusing to everyone is people claiming that the Scottish Govt have devolved powers and abilities that they clearly do not have. And even worse, urging them 'to use' powers that they clearly don't have in order to 'fix' the Scottish economy and provide better services etc. It's just daft.

Mabye in the future that will be possible. But not currently. And not for a few years when even then, due to the fact most tax and welfare powers remain reserved.. powers are still very constrained.