Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

Tromking

Shakethedisease wrote: »

lAt the end of the day. No-one wants taxes raised simply in order to mitigate Tory cuts just to stand still. It's not and never has been, the Scottish Govt's job to mitigate Westminster/UK wide reserved policies, while such matters remain reserved and implemented UK wide. End of.

Puh!!!......Fairness for all only with someone else's money, some progressive you are!!

Rinoa

As far as I can see SNP support is broadly spread across all income groups. I wonder how that support will be affected when some income groups are taxed more heavily to pay for services the SNP aspire to.

I believe the SNP are more than happy not to have those powers right now for fear it may alienate many of their followers.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

At the end of the day. No-one wants taxes raised simply in order to mitigate Tory cuts just to stand still. It's not and never has been, the Scottish Govt's job to mitigate Westminster/UK wide reserved policies, while such matters remain reserved and implemented UK wide. End of.

how is 'mitigating' the effects of a 'reserved' power any different from having a different policy from england?

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Shakethedisease wrote: »

At the end of the day. No-one wants taxes raised simply in order to mitigate Tory cuts just to stand still. .

Just for one moment take off your SNP hat and stop with the dog whistle politics of 'Tory Cuts'.

It doesn't make a blind bit of difference who is in power at Westminster or Holyrood, Tory, Labour, SNP, Green, whoever.

That balance between spending on benefits and services and raising revenue from taxes has to be found by whoever is in power.

And the basic principles of economics don't change with the colour of the rosette the donkey is wearing.

Governments of every party are stuck between the rock of what the electorate is willing to pay in taxes and the hard place of what the electorate demands in return with their services and benefits.

That choice between cutting spending or higher taxes is the same choice no matter who is in power, so trying to dismiss it as something that wouldn't have to happen if it wasn't for the big bad Tories is complete and utter nonsense.

If Scotland decides it want higher spending than the rest of the UK, it is about to have the powers to do so, and it is also about to get the powers to pay for it with the higher taxes such spending requires.

Simple as that.

Shakethedisease

CLAPTON wrote: »

how is 'mitigating' the effects of a 'reserved' power any different from having a different policy from england?

Torys cut ----> SNP raise taxes to mitigate

---

> Labour and Torys get a nice stick to beat the SNP with. Tory policies are Tory policies.

I afraid folks like Hamish who keep repeating the lines about the 3p in the pound tax raises, or the fact that from next year the Scottish govt can only raise taxes across the board. Are living in lala land. The 3p tax was never usable. Which is why, well, it's never been used. Even Labour in power in Scotland saw that.

The plain fact is that in those sort of circumstances, the SNP are damned if they do, and damned if they don't. The new tax raising powers coming in 2016 are like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut as far as raising taxes across the board are concerned. Most especially if low paid, and doubly so if the Tories get their tax credits cuts through ( they've only been delayed ).

Any tax raising powers that come from the new Scotland Bill going through parliament right now. Aren't agreed yet. No-one know's what they'll eventually look like, and no-one knows when they'll eventually come into force.

Tory cuts are the Tories problem pure and simple. Nothing to do with the SNP and it's certainly not up to the Scottish Govt to 'make up the shortfall' via tax hikes just to stay still, most especially when these cuts are more than likely just the first of many Osborne has planned. The Scottish Govt isn't there to do that. Though they might choose to try some measures like the did with the bedroom tax.

Shakethedisease

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Just for one moment take off your SNP hat and stop with the dog whistle politics of 'Tory Cuts'.

It doesn't make a blind bit of difference who is in power at Westminster or Holyrood, Tory, Labour, SNP, Green, whoever.

That balance between spending on benefits and services and raising revenue from taxes has to be found by whoever is in power.

That's correct. But it's the Tories in power implementing UK wide policies. You seem to be under the impression that all the SNP have to do is 'raise taxes' to cover for Tory policies.

And the basic principles of economics don't change with the colour of the rosette the donkey is wearing.

Governments of every party are stuck between the rock of what the electorate is willing to pay in taxes and the hard place of what the electorate demands in return with their services and benefits.

That choice between cutting spending or higher taxes is the same choice no matter who is in power, so trying to dismiss it as something that wouldn't have to happen if it wasn't for the big bad Tories is complete and utter nonsense.

If Scotland decides it want higher spending than the rest of the UK, it is about to have the powers to do so, and it is also about to get the powers to pay for it with the higher taxes such spending requires.

Simple as that.

Independence would probably do the job a little better than fiddling about at the edges with tax cuts/raises. If there has to be 'pain' then one is better with the full powers to deal with it properly. Rather than piecemeal and a bit of power for this, but none at all to do that. The Scottish Govt is a devolved government remember ? Has nowhere near the same tools as Osborne has. And I think that you're being very disingenuous trying to paint it like they have ( from an purely economic point of view as you say ).... Raising income tax as the sole and only method of dealing with every economic problem there is in Scotland ? Is not a viable answer. And it never will be. You of all people should know that.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Torys cut ----> SNP raise taxes to mitigate

---

> Labour and Torys get a nice stick to beat the SNP with. Tory policies are Tory policies.

I afraid folks like Hamish who keep repeating the lines about the 3p in the pound tax raises, or the fact that from next year the Scottish govt can only raise taxes across the board. Are living in lala land. The 3p tax was never usable. Which is why, well, it's never been used. Even Labour in power in Scotland saw that.

The plain fact is that in those sort of circumstances, the SNP are damned if they do, and damned if they don't. The new tax raising powers coming in 2016 are like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut as far as raising taxes across the board are concerned. Most especially if low paid, and doubly so if the Tories get their tax credits cuts through ( they've only been delayed ).

Any tax raising powers that come from the new Scotland Bill going through parliament right now. Aren't agreed yet. No-one know's what they'll eventually look like, and no-one knows when they'll eventually come into force.

Tory cuts are the Tories problem pure and simple. Nothing to do with the SNP and it's certainly not up to the Scottish Govt to 'make up the shortfall' via tax hikes just to stay still, most especially when these cuts are more than likely just the first of many Osborne has planned. The Scottish Govt isn't there to do that. Though they might choose to try some measures like the did with the bedroom tax.

Makes no sense

surely the whole point of devolved powers is scotland can have different priorities than RoUK

presumably we can expect SNP to introduce student fees?

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Raising income tax as the sole and only method of dealing with every economic problem there is in Scotland ? Is not a viable answer. And it never will be. You of all people should know that.

On the contrary I fully support income tax changes as being honest and upfront with the electorate rather than stealth taxes or so called 'business' taxes (100% of which are paid for by consumers anyway).

I genuinely believe all taxpayers should fully understand that there is no magic money tree and that there is no 'government money', it's all 'taxpayer money'.

It all comes out of your pocket and mine.

No matter how disingenuous governments of every flavour (and I include the Tories in that) may try to be about concealing the source of tax revenue, and creating an 'us and them' mentality in the process, it's all bollox really.... the reality is WE pay for all taxes levied on society whether they call it a business tax, a corporate tax, an income tax or a stealth tax.

And the sooner more people realise that the better.

Which is why forcing a devolved government to present those tax and spending choices in a more open and transparent matter is a wholly positive move.

And as income taxes are the one tax people really notice how better to present it?

Shakethedisease

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

On the contrary I fully support income tax changes as being honest and upfront with the electorate rather than stealth taxes or so called 'business' taxes (100% of which are paid for by consumers anyway).

I genuinely believe all taxpayers should fully understand that there is no magic money tree and that there is no 'government money', it's all 'taxpayer money'.

It all comes out of your pocket and mine.

No matter how disingenuous governments of every flavour (and I include the Tories in that) may try to be about concealing the source of tax revenue, and creating an 'us and them' mentality in the process, it's all bollox really.... the reality is WE pay for all taxes levied on society whether they call it a business tax, a corporate tax, an income tax or a stealth tax.

And the sooner more people realise that the better.

Which is why forcing a devolved government to present those tax and spending choices in a more open and transparent matter is a wholly positive move.

And as income taxes are the one tax people really notice how better to present it?

The plain truth of the matter is that not being in control of all layers of tax/spending and borrowing means any devolved government is severely limited in what it can and cannot do.. There are always lots of cries on threads like these to how the SNP are 'blaming Westminster'. These days it's completely normalised in Scotland that when the Tories/Tories/Libdems implement an unpopular policy, instead of opposing... the other parties and most of the media in Scotland and elsewhere turn round and say 'Well what are the SNP going to do about it then ?'.... The income tax issue is a prime example.

The devil is always in the detail.

This lamentable tendency is much in evidence in the reporting of today's speech from Kezia Dugdale, pledging to "restore", "cancel" or "reverse" Tory tax credit cuts. The first question you might ask is a simple one: are tax credits devolved now? No, they're not. And is the new Scotland Bill proposing to devolve decision-making on either the child or the working tax credit to MSPs? No, it isn't. So how the deuce is this flagship Scottish Labour policy to be delivered?....

...."Restoring" tax credits from Holyrood isn't a question of popping an extra £200 into the balance for each qualified applicant. Each individual case will have to be calculated on its merits. This is gruesomely complicated. Someone would have to do the calculations. And under the general principles of the Smith agreement, the bean-counting money would have to come out of the Scottish budget.
And worse, Holyrood will have only the crudest tools to begin to mitigate this impact -- even if the money could be found to begin to do so. Whatever Labour hope to be able to do -- it can't be to "cancel" or "reverse" the effect of tax credit cuts. The Scottish Parliament just doesn't have the power.

http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/kezia-dugdale-doctoring-with-cudgel.html

So, not quite so straightforward as the SNP or any Scottish Labour Govt 'just raising income taxes' after all. And whatever you think of John Swinney. He's been completely upfront and 'transparent' that there's no hope of an SNP Govt being able to reverse tax credit cuts through income tax. On the face of it, and given the complexity and the legalities, he's probably right about that.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Shakethedisease wrote: »

The plain truth of the matter is that not being in control of all layers of tax/spending and borrowing means any devolved government is severely limited in what it can and cannot do..

Nonsense.

You are only arguing for the dishonest and disingenuous continuation of political parties of all persuasions building an us and them mentality and taxing through stealth.

WE pay for 100% of ALL taxes.

It makes absolutely no difference at all who politicians lie about imposing them on, it is only ever the consumers of good and services that pay, in other words it is you and me that pay all taxes.

Stop indulging the political elites and being their mindless pawn by pretending that it is anything other or that any government can tax anyone other than the ordinary working man or woman.

The myth that tax rises can be paid by business or the wealthy and not be passed on to ordinary people is a lie and a fantasy.

And as that is inarguably the case then income tax is the only honest way to do it.