Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

Generali

elantan wrote: »

and what % was that again?

For the Tories? 37%. For the SNP? 4.7%

You can pick holes in the numbers all you like. The fact is that the SNP are a divisive party by policy and lie shamefacedly.

If that puts them above the general standard of politics at [STRIKE]the hated palace of the oppressors[/STRIKE] Westminster then politics have gone downhill in England and Wales since I left.

elantan

ach wheest you know what I mean ... 37% of the full UK and the SNP got 50.4% of the Scottish vote ...

dinnae get yerself all twisted in knots now

kabayiri

elantan wrote: »

ach wheest you know what I mean ... 37% of the full UK and the SNP got 50.4% of the Scottish vote ...

dinnae get yerself all twisted in knots now

Proof if any were needed that the SNP truly are a successful regional party.

Why don't they demonstrate their superior political prowess on the UK stage?

Compete in all the UK seats.

If you still win 50.4% then you get to break up the UK any which way you desire.

Independence job done

Generali

elantan wrote: »

ach wheest you know what I mean ... 37% of the full UK and the SNP got 50.4% of the Scottish vote ...

dinnae get yerself all twisted in knots now

If the SNP got 50.4% of the UK vote they'd be in power but they didn't and so they're not.

My point remains. The SNP don't represent the majority of Scots despite your claims, their flagship policy of decades was destroyed by the Scots people, their policies are divisive and make some very fundamental lies.

skintmacflint

elantan wrote: »

I agree I so worry about this and have noticed there are factions within the SNP that are very different from the SNP of old, I do find it interesting how when these people were labour ( as inevitably a large portion of them were) this was never an issue but now that they have changed their loyalty to SNP they are suddenly a huge issue, these people havnt really changed, just the direction in which they follow has.

It will take a while for new parties to be formed and that does worry me, I want a more representative government, contrary to popular belief we do have Tories in Scotland and Greens and Socialists etc I would like them all proportionately represented, that doesnt stand a chance of happening until independence though. I have spoken to many SNP members and a fair few of them do say the SNP are a means to an end, they dont agree with all their policies and a lot of things about them but they see them as the best way to get independence.

I saw quite a bit of the Patrick Harvie stuff, and to me what he said made sense, I agreed with him, It appeared though that the zealots just jumped without thinking, that is boring and shows lack of intelligence IMHO. These people were labour people first, but over the years became apathetic to the way in which our country had been ran, they are now awake and angry, thing is a lot of them have just woken up and havnt quite landed on their feet yet and they think they know everything, it's very frustrating for those of us that have "done" politics for years, yes its brilliant people have became passionate but sometimes I despair at some of the behaviours, I sometimes reckon you could now call a mob to protest at the opening of a packet of crisps.

The SNP seem to be masters in NLP I have heard a few things Nicola said first hand and I have talked to friends about it ( who were also there), every single one of them heard it differently from me, they all heard the exact same thing, I had to go online and find the speech she made, and I had to play it back for them proving what I said was right and pointing out " look actually listen to what is being said, not what you want to hear"

One thing that concerns me deeply is people that I campaigned with have started on this zealous route, when I hear one of them say " Soar Alba" or " Albu Gu Brath" I cringe.... I really cringe and look at them and think " what happened to you?" When I hear them towing the party line and sounding like a zealot I shake my head. I was invited to a SNP gathering the other night, it was explained to me it was an opportunity to speak to a MP and ask questions ( kinda like an open surgery type thing) It wasnt, it was a branch meeting, yes the MP turned up and was very nice I cant fault the MP in anyway at all but it was very uncomfortable sitting there listening to a branch meeting, there was nothing secretive about it, it was very open but it was (for me) uncomfortable. I am not sure if my friend wanted me to join or not and this was a way to get me to ... but no I wont join, the more time goes on the more I feel uncomfortable about the SNP.

With all of that said I still honestly believe they are the best thing for the UK just now, not just Scotland, they are shaking politics up and making people think " what do I want my country to be" and that has to be good, people should be looking around them and atleast seeing if they like what they see instead of blindly going along in life and moaning but doing nothing.

We live in interesting times politically, alot of Scotland has woken up to whats going on locally nationally and globally, would be even more exciting if the rest of the UK did as well

Certainly SNP are now unrecognisable to the party and policies they once had. I've no clear idea what they stand for, other than power. They don't seem to have any principles they won't alter if they think it helps gain increased power and control. And they are a controlling party. I reckon many of their genuine new MPs will be transformed into party central drones before the year is out.

Despite their rhetoric of pretending the people will make decisions blah blah, it's pretty obvious as a party they don't believe Scottish people are capable of running their own lives without central government legislation micro managing our lives. We now have enforced state approved guardians appointed from before birth till age 18. Enforced attendance at state nurseries , to educate kids early will follow shortly IMO. All under the guise of it's for the benefit of our kids. That's a tried and tested way of getting people to accept things. But it's really about mindset change and control.

Mind you I don't disagree if Scotland is to become the new Nordic country, a huge mindset would be required. These countries aren't thriving because they have a huge welfare state. More to do with their work ethics and civic responsibility long lost here. Thanks to labour growing a hugely dependant and self entitled society, having morphed from a party for workers into the party for welfare.

There is a difference in many Labour voters who have switched allegiance, they're noisier and considerably angrier, more vocal and feeling pretty emboldened , in this surge of illusory power. Unfortunately not any brighter.

These ex Labour supporters will ultimately bring the downfall of SNP, just as they have done to the Labour party IMO Hopefully it won't take as long. And hopefully there will be a party of common sense , not rhetoric around by then to replace them.

Shakethedisease

.string. wrote: »

There are a number of things I dislike about the SNP and a prime one is their inability to tell the Scottish People the truth. They misrepresented the state of the Scottish economy at the time of the referendum and continue to do so, The Scots would have been facing disaster had more of them fell for the promised Eutopia, and things have not got better for the independence case. Some Scots want independence regardless of such things but a great many do not, and they were deceived.

They also misrepresent the good faith of the UK government which is trying to give Scotland what was promised and agreed. It goes beyond political banter into rank deception.

I understand that the FFA/R was initially to be discussed in the Smith process but was withdrawn by the SNP (*). That being so, all their discussion there was in bad faith.

It is hardly surprising therefore that the SNP are not to be trusted. Day by day that is demonstrated, it's almost farcical.

I draw a parallel here with the Grexit, where a major problem was, and remains, the lack of trust that Europe's Governments have of the Greek Government. This is a very serious matter when trust is a necessity for financial support to be given.

Compare that situation with Scotland's situation should it become independent having a large structural deficit, a large national debt and an SNP Government which demonstrates daily that it is not a trustworthy political movement. They did, after all, threaten not to pay their debts.

Of course a new party can take over which is more trustworthy, but the SNP is dragging Scotland through the dirt and besmirching its previous good name.

So elanten, if you want to pursue a goal of independence, you need a party worthy of the cause, but not the SNP.

(*) I cannot be 100% sure of this for though I saw it claimed, cannot find a link at the moment.

You fail to explain why the Scots keep voting for them if anything above is even half true. They have no support in the media. Scottish or otherwise.

Shakethedisease

kabayiri wrote: »

They are most welcome to prove us doubters wrong.

If they make maximum use of their current resources and turn Scotland into an economic reference case I shall have nothing but admiration.

I just don't see anything new. Health outcomes are still rubbish in Scotland despite the health budget being devolved for some time now.

How to make maximum use of their current resources ? The ones agreed in the last devolution round ( Scotland Act 2012), well before the referendum.. don't come into force until next year.. They're already out of date.

The new powers devolved to the Scottish Parliament include:

• a new Scottish rate of income tax to be in place from April 2016
• new borrowing powers for the Scottish Government
• full control of stamp duty land tax and landfill tax from April 2015
• the power to introduce new taxes, subject to agreement of the UK Government

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/visitandlearn/Education/21139.aspx

Perhaps your should wait a bit longer before expecting a devolved govt with very limited economic powers to instantly turn into some sort of ecomomic powerhouse just yet. I'm not quite sure why exactly you think this would happen given the limitations and the fact you know a bit about how economics work. However you seem convinced of it.

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

If the SNP got 50.4% of the UK vote they'd be in power but they didn't and so they're not.

My point remains. The SNP don't represent the majority of Scots despite your claims, their flagship policy of decades was destroyed by the Scots people, their policies are divisive and make some very fundamental lies.

Cameron can't even depend on his own party for votes. Which is why EVEL, Fox hunting, Human rights and a few other things have been kicked down the road. If he could depend on his own MP's, he'd have no reason to be worried about the SNP.

They can't on one hand insist that the Scots voted to stay in the UK and in the UK parliament and to suck it up when the UK parliament vote Scottish related things down. Then on the other hand, throw hissy fits when Scottish MP's even threaten to vote in said UK parliament. The Tories are going to have to suck that one up I'm afraid. It's a Union. In which, the majority of Scots voted to play a full part in.

( SNP were damned if they did vote, and damned if they didn't re fox hunting.. may as well have made the best of it ).

CLAPTON

sadly, history shows that acolytes, irrespective of facts, will always keep the faith

zagubov

kabayiri wrote: »

Just like some people in Scotland are mistrustful of politicians in Westminster there are people south of the border who are mistrustful of the SNP and their plans.

Just one case in point :

The day after independence the subsidy paid to Scotland stops.

Generali wrote: »

I think it's the pretense that the SNP are some sort of party that sits outside the grubby malaise of politics that rankles given the fact that the SNP have lied again and again through both the referendum and GE campaigns.

They are trying to drive a wedge between Scotland and England to force Scotland out of the Union at almost any cost. It's important to remember that the SNP isn't Scotland, doesn't even represent half the electorate and had its flagship policy roundly rejected by the Scottish people.

They may reckon they're Johnny Big Potatoes right now but they're just the same as any other party. Okay at the moment they don't have many career politicians but any future Scottish career politician worth her salt will be lining up an internship at SNP HQ as I type.

I try to keep as informed as I can be about politics north of the Tweed, but while the SNP has no foolproof way of keeping out weirdos, bigots, charisma vacuums, malcontents, oxygen thieves and knowledge-base non-possessors, it does have one unusual asset - the remorseless scrutiny of a universally hostile media which would be delighted to catch them out with poor performance/bad behaviour/ malpractice/ criminal tendencies/whatever.

Pretty much makes them behave as if they're on trial all the time and that what they do matters. The other parties don't have this. Maybe it shouldn't have an effect on them but I reckon it keeps them upping their game in a way that the dinosaur unionist parties don't.;)