Biomass Boilers Government Scheme

foli

Has anyone recently had fitted or been quoted for the Biomsss boilers through the government RHI incentive which started in May?
They came to our house and said it wasn't worth doing as our electricity costs were already low, so I asked them to visit my mum's house where they did a quote. The boiler is 18k, she would make a saving and it worked out she'd get approx £150 extra back off government a month (paid quarterly).
I've since done a google search and seen a site that offers free boiler and installation and they get the government money back.
This is a minefield of information, is it a scam or worth doing.

Robwiz

It's a genuine scheme but there are lots of 'opportunists' looking to make a quick buck. It's a classic scam opportunity – persuade the victim to lay out a large sum up front with the promise of seven years of rewards that more than cover the outlay.

There are many risks. The biggest in the biomass heating industry is ongoing maintenance and support. These things can break down and you need to rely on the installer to be available to support it for a long time after installation.

There's quite a few tales of woe on this forum, so do a search for biomass or pellet boiler.

Having said that, the MCS and RHI schemes are a crock of ***t – UK prices of EU approved biomass boilers are double their German or Polish price because they have to be MCS approved and installed to qualify for the RHI payment. It's a rip off and the industry is making a killing at the expense of anyone who buys.

Silent_Dancer

I'll second what Robwiz has said. Pellet boilers are expensive and often unreliable. That said particularly for thoose who've got a large draughty house the returns from RHI can be large.

Please note the rules of RHI state that the boiler should be owned by the applicant. Therefore, free boiler schemes are scams.

thenudeone

There is a legitimate government scheme which can pay several thousands of pounds a year to householders who install "renewable" energy.
I am getting money from it so the scheme is definitely genuine.

I investigated both biomass and air source heat pumps but ruled out biomass for a variety of reasons (even though the RHI payment is higher):

• less mature technology
• much more complicated mechanically - more to go wrong
• much more maintenance / cleaning required
• more expensive initial install
• large space required for pellet storage
• pellets are just another commodity which can become much more expensive over time (whereas there is some political pressure to keep electricity prices in check)

As has been mentioned, the older and larger your house is, the more attractive the scheme is because you will need more heat (renewable or otherwise) to keep it warm. A small modern house has lower heat requirements, so the amount of energy saving by using renewables is lower.

I expect the RHI payments to pay for the ASHP installion within the 7 years.

However, even if the RHI sums add up for your situation, you should never sign up to a £10k+ purchase from the first company that knocked on the door. Shop around and get several quotes for each technology, if you think it's worth it for you.

captainhindsight_2

Ok first this is not a scam, biomass boilers are very good and reliable if you buy the right model and have a good installer. A lot of people on here have heard horror stories where people have been cheapskates and cut corners and then wondered why the heating doesn't work.

So if you are paying for it, don't use the cheapest installer/boiler. I would recommend a Frolling or ETA which are by far the best on the market, and you must use an experienced installer. If you write on here what you have been quoted for I can let you know if it sounds good or bad.

Now about the 'free' biomass boilers, first this:

Silent_Dancer wrote: »

Please note the rules of RHI state that the boiler should be owned by the applicant. Therefore, free boiler schemes are scams.

is complete rubbish!!!

The RHI can be paid to a owner or occupier of the property the boiler is in, so essentially a contract is put in place so the company offering the 'free' biomass boiler is a co-occupier. This allows the RHI payments to be made to the third party that paid for the 'free' boiler. One thing with this the installer obviously has a vested interest to ensure the boiler is working for the 7 years the payments are made over and often include free servicing etc in it as well.

Silent_Dancer

From OFGEM:

You must be the owner of the heating technology and the owner or occupier of the property.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/environmental-programmes/domestic-renewable-heat-incentive/about-domestic-rhi/eligible-heating-systems/general-eligibility-checklist-%E2%80%93-domestic-renewable-heat-incentive

captainhindsight_2

That's what I said...

Silent_Dancer

captainhindsight wrote: »

That's what I said...

Therefore free boiler schemes are scams. These rules were but in place to prevent the rent a roof type schemes that blighted PV FIT. It would appear that there businesses that have found ways round this. I would advise anyone going down that route to clarify its legality with OFGEM and get the contract checked out by a solicitor.

captainhindsight_2

Silent_Dancer wrote: »

Therefore free boiler schemes are scams. These rules were but in place to prevent the rent a roof type schemes that blighted PV FIT. It would appear that there businesses that have found ways round this. I would advise anyone going down that route to clarify its legality with OFGEM and get the contract checked out by a solicitor.

NO NO NO, it is NOT a scam!!!!

It is a perfectly legitimate contract, it is just a tenancy agreement whereby the third party rents the floor the boiler is standing on thus becomes a occupier of the property thus RHI payments can be made to the third party. As RHI payments can only be paid to the owner of the heating system and a owner of occupier of the property.

It is very simple and is NOT a scam.

It is weird how so many people on MSE have an agenda against renewables, progression and government backed schemes such as RHI.

The 'free' biomass boiler is not the best option out there. The best option would be to pay cash, second best would be private finance but not every one can do this. So the 'free' biomass boiler is prob the last resort but it gives people access to cheaper alternatives to LPG and oil and is completely legitimate!

Robwiz

captainhindsight wrote: »

NO NO NO, it is NOT a scam!!!!

It is a perfectly legitimate contract, it is just a tenancy agreement whereby the third party rents the floor the boiler is standing on thus becomes a occupier of the property thus RHI payments can be made to the third party. As RHI payments can only be paid to the owner of the heating system and a owner of occupier of the property.

It is very simple and is NOT a scam.

It is weird how so many people on MSE have an agenda against renewables, progression and government backed schemes such as RHI.

A number of us here have spent a lot of time researching and analysing the available information, including meeting potential installers, and have formed our views based on logical analysis of the data. Exhortations and put downs won't change our views.

The 'free' biomass boiler is not the best option out there. The best option would be to pay cash, second best would be private finance but not every one can do this. So the 'free' biomass boiler is prob the last resort but it gives people access to cheaper alternatives to LPG and oil and is completely legitimate!

1) - renting the space occupied by the boiler reads like exploiting a loophole to me and appears contrary to the spirit of the legislation

2) - forum members are not opposed to renewables - look at the many advocates of solar PV. The majority here are cautiously conserving their capital and making sure it works hard for them. We don't see the point of spending £20k on a heating system that will return £20k over seven years when £3k would do the same job, be more reliable and require less effort and we can find better things to do with our cash.

However much you shill for renewables, biomass boilers take up more space and take more time and effort feeding them and keeping them running than the other technologies. The fuel is unusable if it gets wet in storage. Biomass is unsuitable for older people (an important consideration for a 20 year investment) and people with physical limitations.

ASHP technology has a lousy track record in the UK, due to the incompetence/venality of people who have sold them inappropriately, under-sized them and installed them incorrectly.

For both technologies there is factual evidence here that after-sales support and ongoing maintenance are critical and many original installers have gone bust and are not around to support their customers. That rapid churn of installers points to renewable heating being a 'quick buck' market.

None of these risks apply to gas, oil or electric night storage heating, which are established technologies with properly regulated engineer standards and good availability of competent service engineers.

captainhindsight_2

Robwiz wrote: »

1) - renting the space occupied by the boiler reads like exploiting a loophole to me and appears contrary to the spirit of the legislation Maybe true but does not make it a scam

2) - forum members are not opposed to renewables - look at the many advocates of solar PV. The majority here are cautiously conserving their capital and making sure it works hard for them. We don't see the point of spending £20k on a heating system that will return £20k over seven years when £3k would do the same job, be more reliable and require less effort and we can find better things to do with our cash.

That is where you assume that the RHI income is equal to the capital cost. It is not, the payback from RHI alone is usually about 5 years. I have a biomass boilers in a number of my BTLs and cost about £6k each and I am getting just over £9k each back over 7 years not including the increase in RHI payments with inflation. It would have cost me £2k to put in a new oil or lpg boiler so only a extra spend of £4k. That is a 17% annual return on my capital. Please tell me where I can get better than that? .

However much you shill for renewables, biomass boilers take up more space and take more time and effort feeding them and keeping them running than the other technologies. The fuel is unusable if it gets wet in storage. Biomass is unsuitable for older people (an important consideration for a 20 year investment) and people with physical limitations.

Good biomass boilers are not unreliable, cheap biomass boilers are unreliable, just like cheap oil bilers are, cheap gas boilers are etc etc. Get the trend, you get what you pay for! The problem is, people try and do a job on the cheap and wonder why it doenst work.

Oil is unusable if you get water in it, petrol it, diesel is, LPG is that argument is irrelevant and stupid. They key is don't get it wet.... lol. They don't have to take up more space than an oil or LPG boiler because you have a boiler + Fuel store and a thermal store with PTP heat exchanger for hot water. (this is the same for biomass, lpg or oil)

Why is it unsuitable for older people, you get a fuel delivery (just like you do with oil or lpg) the boiler ticks a long heating your home once a year you have a service where the engineer empties the ash bin. Whats hard about that?

ASHP technology has a lousy track record in the UK, due to the incompetence/venality of people who have sold them inappropriately, under-sized them and installed them incorrectly.

Correct and people on MSE trying to do jobs on the cheap because they dont want to pay for a experienced tradesman or think they know better

For both technologies there is factual evidence here that after-sales support and ongoing maintenance are critical and many original installers have gone bust and are not around to support their customers. That rapid churn of installers points to renewable heating being a 'quick buck' market.

This goes back to buying a good boiler and paying for an approved installer, as the manufacturer offers the after-sales support not the installer. ETA, Froling and Vaillant do this. As long as you used an approved installer in the first place, regardless of whether or not they are still trading the support is still there. I agree there are horror stories because so many try to do the job on the cheap. Again this is the same with a gas boiler, you get better after-sales support if you use an approved installer even if that insataller is not longer trading

None of these risks apply to gas, oil or electric night storage heating, which are established technologies with properly regulated engineer standards and good availability of competent service engineers.

Oh dear, it is much harder to get the HETAS qualifications to be able to fit biomass than it is get OFTEC for oil boilers and is much more tightly regulated!

Your points answered above, the problem is people do a job on the cheap and blame the technology.

There is nothing wrong with the technology, it is just people think everyone is trying to rip them off and that they know better than everyone else especially people in the trade. So do the job themselves, get joe blogs plumber with no experience of renewables to plumb it in and wonder why it doesnt work.

One of the common trends with criticism on MSE is quoting pre-RHI non MCS installations and paint the whole renewables industry with the same brush.

It is like comparing a gas boiler installation from a gas engineer and boiler that is installed by a plumber who is not a gas engineer.

The comparison is irrelevant, as any problems are with the installation and not the technology.