Biomass Boilers Government Scheme

Silent_Dancer

captainhindsight wrote: »

Your points answered above, the problem is people do a job on the cheap and blame the technology.

There is nothing wrong with the technology, it is just people think everyone is trying to rip them off and that they know better than everyone else especially people in the trade. So do the job themselves, get joe blogs plumber with no experience of renewables to plumb it in and wonder why it doesnt work.

One of the common trends with criticism on MSE is quoting pre-RHI non MCS installations and paint the whole renewables industry with the same brush.

It is like comparing a gas boiler installation from a gas engineer and boiler that is installed by a plumber who is not a gas engineer.

The comparison is irrelevant, as any problems are with the installation and not the technology.

I agree there are some major issues with under-qualified installers who do not understand the technology. Fly by nights have been attracted to the RHI honeypot and are pushing renewables as a money making scheme rather than a means of heating your home.

The ironic thing is that we have been here before with solar PV and FITs. Has MCS not learnt to weed out the cowboys from the solar PV miss-selling?

However, unlike PV this scandal in waiting will cause a bigger stink. People will get far more upset when their heating does not work properly than missing a few weeks solar FITs. And in the case of biomass badly installed appliances kill.

So we agree on the point of the quality of installation and hopefully MCS are doing their job in weeding out the cowboys. However, I disagree on the reliability of the technology pellet boilers are fundamentally unreliable and high maintenance.

The simple reason is down to maintaining stable combustion when the quality of the fuel can vary from batch to batch unlike gas and oil. Even storage can have an influence as the pellets can become wet. When your combustion goes off you are left with partially burnt pellets or lots of ash and soot. This then requires frequent clean outs. I will say that many of the expensive Austrian brands have technology to combat this but increased complexity equals a greater risk of something breaking.

Other issues relate to pellet feeds clogging and igniters burning out prematurely due to short cycling.

Feedback to date is not positive on pellet boilers as can be seen on other threads on MSE and elsewhere on the internet.

John says: November 2, 2014 at 8:54 pm
Unfortunately the word breakdown is scary reality. Trianco Greenflame (using pellets) installed along with a buffer vessel just over 2 weeks ago, this morning (Sunday) it is not working, error ‘system blocked’, after removing all the pellets from the hopper and burner the error disappeared, on refilling, it is making the right noises but the burner still won’t ignite, I guess this would contribute to the fuel saving if we didn’t have to use the electric immersion heater for hot water and electric fan heaters for heat until the installer opens on Monday and sends an engineer out sometime after that, I am starting to visualise higher energy bills on top of a hefty installation bill this year.

Could this be the next con, already been stung for solar hot water that doesn’t work most of the year?

Gill says: November 17, 2014 at 10:22 pm
We purchased an MCZ Compact 24 two years ago and had problems with it from day one. The boiler broke down on numerous occasions over the next 18 months The company who installed it have gone bust and we were left in March of this year with no heating or hot water (yet again) and nowhere to turn.

Because the installation company had lapsed their membership with the MCS, we had no way to take action against them and no hope of getting our boiler fixed under warranty to a condition where we felt it would be reliable. As I have seen in previous posts, it’s the same recurring issues that cause the failures; igniters, overheating thermostats that blow out the burn pots and the motherboards.

The manufacturer didn’t want to know and didn’t even bother to reply to my letters – they got the British distributor to call me and offer me a new igniter as a ‘goodwill gesture’ as the boiler was 18 months old, even though they had no idea what was wrong with it and it was still under warranty. They refused to even come out and compile a report on the boiler unless I agreed to a repair (only to replace the igniter, even though I knew that both the motherboard and burn pot were damaged), which I refused on the grounds that I wanted a replacement boiler. We have had nothing in writing from them at all – extremely disappointing and more a little worrying, given that their reputation is at stake here.

Our boiler has now been sitting broken for seven months and I would most certainly not recommend this manufacturer to anyone after our experience.
I would welcome hearing from anyone else who has had problems of a similar nature.

Heidi says: November 19, 2014 at 3:46 pm
Have had a Nordica Extraflame LP14 for just over 18 months, beginning to wish I had never had it installed. Have had numerous problems including the installers not doing so correctly and being from the other side of the country after doing a leaflet drop in my rural area seemed to do a “install and scarper”. Yes the fuel maybe cheaper, but what good is it if the system doesn’t function properly. They are a faff to clean out and load. Am now without heat and hot water yet again due “no ignition” and despite following all the diagnostics it is not remedied so faced with the possibility that the pellet feed motor is broken. The manufacturers are in Italy and rarely bother to respond. I feel the whole industry and initiative is a big swizz and am stuck with an expensive piece of impressive looking kit which is unworkable in the long term.

captainhindsight_2

Silent_Dancer wrote: »

I agree there are some major issues with under-qualified installers who do not understand the technology. Fly by nights have been attracted to the RHI honeypot and are pushing renewables as a money making scheme rather than a means of heating your home.

The ironic thing is that we have been here before with solar PV and FITs. Has MCS not learnt to weed out the cowboys from the solar PV miss-selling?

However, unlike PV this scandal in waiting will cause a bigger stink. People will get far more upset when their heating does not work properly than missing a few weeks solar FITs. And in the case of biomass badly installed appliances kill.

So we agree on the point of the quality of installation and hopefully MCS are doing their job in weeding out the cowboys. However, I disagree on the reliability of the technology pellet boilers are fundamentally unreliable and high maintenance.

The simple reason is down to maintaining stable combustion when the quality of the fuel can vary from batch to batch unlike gas and oil. Even storage can have an influence as the pellets can become wet. When your combustion goes off you are left with partially burnt pellets or lots of ash and soot. This then requires frequent clean outs. I will say that many of the expensive Austrian brands have technology to combat this but increased complexity equals a greater risk of something breaking.

Other issues relate to pellet feeds clogging and igniters burning out prematurely due to short cycling.

Feedback to date is not positive on pellet boilers as can be seen on other threads on MSE and elsewhere on the internet.

Wow we agree... Lol.

This is a new industry, en plus standards are only recently being enforced in regards to fuel quality which will bypass your conserns in regards to fuel quality eventually!

pambler

I have elderly farmer friends who have been convinced to install a Biomass boiler under this scheme - this will be to provide heating to a large and badly insulated farmhouse, a farm cottage and about 10 offices of varying sizes that they have on the farm. They have been told that they will receive more than two times back from the government than their fuel will actually cost - which immediately made me a feel a bit uneasy. The 'lovely young man' who came to see them has got them totally convinced.

What I am reading here is concerning me somewhat. Theirs would obviously be a massive installation - I think they have been quoted about £35K. But it sounds like there could be maintenance issues - especially as he is the type of person who hates to call someone out when things go wrong and prefers to tinker and fix things himself. I don't think they have had any other quotes, so I will see if I can at least persuade them to do that.

Smiley_Dan

As per the previous post, the biggest scandal with the RHI is that you get paid more for using more (or more according to an EPC in most cases).

That's clearly different to FiTs, where it's better to be *generating* more.

Crazy town.

captainhindsight_2

pambler wrote: »

I have elderly farmer friends who have been convinced to install a Biomass boiler under this scheme - this will be to provide heating to a large and badly insulated farmhouse, a farm cottage and about 10 offices of varying sizes that they have on the farm. They have been told that they will receive more than two times back from the government than their fuel will actually cost - which immediately made me a feel a bit uneasy. The 'lovely young man' who came to see them has got them totally convinced.

What I am reading here is concerning me somewhat. Theirs would obviously be a massive installation - I think they have been quoted about £35K. But it sounds like there could be maintenance issues - especially as he is the type of person who hates to call someone out when things go wrong and prefers to tinker and fix things himself. I don't think they have had any other quotes, so I will see if I can at least persuade them to do that.

Biomass boilers are very reliable, it is just like everything you get what you pay for. The quotes silent dancer used are all referencing the cheapest boiler s on the market so are irrelevant!

If he is having an eta or frolling he will have no problems!

Your friend will easily get 3-4 Times what he spends back in rhi payments and it will cost him 3-4p/kwh to run and will get around 7p/kWh in rhi payments so the more heat he generates and wastes the more money he has in his pocket this is a money saving site and regardless of the politics of this scheme it is what it is and Can not only save but earn thousands

Cardew

captainhindsight wrote: »

Biomass boilers are very reliable, it is just like everything you get what you pay for. The quotes silent dancer used are all referencing the cheapest boiler s on the market so are irrelevant!

The problem with your stance, is your assumption that potential customers know the best boiler on the market, also know the 'recommended' installers who won't go bust and move on when the quick bucks are gone a new killings are to be made.


From Solar Thermal, solar PV, heat pumps and now Biomass there are horror stories to be read everywhere, and your bald statement that has happened because people have tried to get their systems on the cheap is simply un-supportable.


As you rightly say the ASHP market is blighted with installers who frankly haven't a clue, and know there is no comeback if the system is a disaster.


MCS have done nothing to rule out cowboys as far as I am aware. Do they inspect installations? Follow up complaints? etc etc.


Research on the internet will simply discover all the shills promoting their interests.

captainhindsight_2

cardew wrote: »

the problem with your stance, is your assumption that potential customers know the best boiler on the market, also know the 'recommended' installers who won't go bust and move on when the quick bucks are gone a new killings are to be made.

this is like anything though, what car to buy etc etc. Your stance seems to be to stone wall all renewable because of a few bad experiences.

The best products can be researched and then the good installers can be found by talking to the manufactures. I.e to be an approved vaillant installer for renewables you have to be installing around 24 heatpumps a year before you become approved so if a company is doing this they must be pretty good

from solar thermal, solar pv, heat pumps and now biomass there are horror stories to be read everywhere, and your bald statement that has happened because people have tried to get their systems on the cheap is simply un-supportable.

it is not un-supportable, this is the case with everything gas boilers, cars, tvs etc etc this is not a problem exclusive to renewables.

People are trying to get their systems on the cheap, my company rips out about 5 installs a week that people have done on the cheap and thought they were saving money, the things we have seen are unbelievable all because people think they are being clever by not using an mcs installer who knows what they are doing.

This is a common thred on here, you often see posters saying i have go tthis quote from a mcs installer i do it cheaper than a mcs installer, i have seen this on ebay etc why should i spend £x on getting someone in to install it, my mates a plumber he can do it etc etc.

And i can almost guarantee there systems do not work properly, because being able to fit these things properly comes with training and experience.


as you rightly say the ashp market is blighted with installers who frankly haven't a clue, and know there is no comeback if the system is a disaster.

if you use the right installer there is a comeback


mcs have done nothing to rule out cowboys as far as i am aware. Do they inspect installations? Follow up complaints? Etc etc.

they carry out regular audits on mcs installers, mcs do not deal with complaints this is for recc to deal with. Also manufactures and distributors are being very picky with who they sell boilers too


research on the internet will simply discover all the shills promoting their interests.

this can be said about biggots who just have an aversion to anything new and especially renewables. The fact is there are huge amounts of mis information about renewables and the biggest problem is people doing work on the cheap and refusing to use professionals becasue they think they know what they are doing.

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Cardew

Your post is wrong in so many ways! and apparently most other posters in this section are don't know what they are talking about.

However as pantomime season has started there is no point into getting into an 'oh yes it is - Oh no it isn't game' and logic isn't your strong suit.

P.S

my company rips out about 5 installs a week

The claims for your company get bigger by each post; Taylor-Wimpey's boardroom must be fearing you are plotting a takeover of their company.

captainhindsight_2

Cardew wrote: »

Your post is wrong in so many ways! and apparently most other posters in this section are don't know what they are talking about.

However as pantomime season has started there is no point into getting into an 'oh yes it is - Oh no it isn't game' and logic isn't your strong suit.

P.S
The claims for your company get bigger by each post; Taylor-Wimpey's boardroom must be fearing you are plotting a takeover of their company.

keep digging :T:rotfl:

thenudeone

Smiley_Dan wrote: »

As per the previous post, the biggest scandal with the RHI is that you get paid more for using more (or more according to an EPC in most cases).

That's only true up to a point.

The MAXIMUM RHI you can ever receive is capped at the calculated heat usage that your property requires (based on its size, materials, and insulation) as shown on its EPC.

For a normal domestic property with single renewable supply (ASHP, GSHP or Biomass) the RHI payment is fixed; regardless of how much heat you actually use. There is no requirement for heat metering. This system actually deters these people heating more than they need to, in the hope of getting more RHI, because they won't.

Only commercial properties, domestic properties with two heat sources feeding the same system (eg: ASHP plus an oil boiler) and, IIRC, multi-property claims (eg landlords) require heat metering, which determines the RHI payment. Even then, once you have heated your property to a reasonable temperature, you will reach the RHI cap, and even if you open all your windows and turn the thermostat up, you won't get any more RHI.

There are a few occasions where the statement may be true, for example a landlord may decide to heat an empty house to 21C to get more RHI, when he/she would otherwise have left the thermostat much lower; but the profit isn't great, because the electricity or pellets still have to be paid for. But such an eventuality is almost impossible to prevent.