Stay or go? EU poll - Oh the irony.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

CLAPTON wrote: »

Banking rules, bonuses, transaction taxes, rubbish disposal, biofuels, legal changes, commercial contracts, 'right to forget' and millions of things we haven't yet realised and all in the gift of the EU and not the UK parliament.

And almost all of that we'd be forced to agree to in return for a free trade agreement, at the same cost as now, but with no further influence on the rules or outcomes.

This nationalist dog whistle argument has no veracity and is thoroughly distasteful to any right thinking person.

Graham_Devon

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Is giving people a referendum really worth the years of uncertainty that will cause billions in deferred investment, tens or hundreds of thousands of jobs not created, and the bitter, racist, divisions in society that we saw with the Scottish referendum but on a much larger scale?

It's idiocy writ large.

Why should we all suffer to appease the Europhobes?

To be honest, I'm bored of going over the same thing with you over and over again.

Years of uncertainty is rubbish. You said the said about the Scottish referendum. Sure, there was a small impact, but nothing like the scale you had suggested.

The racist thing is you're viewpoint....and let's face it, your viewpoint is that everyone is a racist unless they welcome uncontrolled, unfettered immigration. I've said to you time and time again, it's racist in itself to give certain people better access to the UK. I.e. People from China face different rules to people from Germany. That's racist by every single one of your definitions, but you seem to gloss over it time and time again.

The job creation is suspect at best. It's all based on hypotheticals and does not allow for all the jobs created as part of being an independant nation.

As I say, I can pretty much state what you are going to say in response before you have said it. And it's boring.

What I'm stating to you though is this isn't going to go away. You'd be better having a referendum sooner than later....as if a referendum is forced through "voter power" the end result is practically written in. Have it now, before the Pro-EU support drains away further. Taht way, everyone gets their say, and you are more likely to get the result you want.

This extra payment is just the tip of the iceberg. Theres a lot more to come, and with that, a lot of Pro-EU support to lose on the way. That payment has lost 2 Pro-EU supporters whom used to (maybe still do) argue for sticking in the EU. Someone called Andrew(W75?) and Conrad. 2 out of probably 20 people swayed to getting out of the EU by events in the last year alone. How much more support do you wish to see drain away? How viscious are your attacks on these people going to get as the support you once had drains further?

Trying to silence people and call them racist idiots is only guarenteeing one thing.... a referendum based on political fear and a very ugly fallout.

Just give people a say....the argument will then be done and dusted. The real reason you are so scared is much like the Scottish referendum....you know how close it could well be.

Simply stating the CBI over and over again is rather absurd though. As you have pointed out, the CBI voices the concerns of big business. (not all business as you suggested). Big business is all about profits. OF COURSE they want to stay in the EU. It brings with it cheape labour and therefore bigger profits. It DOES NOT voice the concerns of PEOPLE. There are more people than there are big business.

CLAPTON

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

And almost all of that we'd be forced to agree to in return for a free trade agreement, at the same cost as now, but with no further influence on the rules or outcomes.

This nationalist dog whistle argument has no veracity and is thoroughly distasteful to any right thinking person.

maybe so or maybe not;


we will have the opportunity to negotiate the free trade agreement: now we have simply to implement the decisions.

Generali

CLAPTON wrote: »

maybe so or maybe not;


we will have the opportunity to negotiate the free trade agreement: now we have simply to implement the decisions.

LOL, you don't negotiate a free trade agreement with the EU if you walk out. You ask if you can have one and they tell you what will be in it.

CLAPTON

Generali wrote: »

LOL, you don't negotiate a free trade agreement with the EU if you walk out. You ask if you can have one and they tell you what will be in it.

maybe so maybe not
both sides have much to lose if negotiations don't go well


would Australia sign up to a EU type deal, with massive scope creep year on year or continue as they are accepting that they could be much richer integrating with our countries ?

zagubov

CLAPTON wrote: »

maybe so or maybe not;


we will have the opportunity to negotiate the free trade agreement: now we have simply to implement the decisions.

Tell you what. Declare independence from Scotland and declare it to be the continuator state. Everybody's been saying here that that will mean the UK's out of the EU automatically.

CLAPTON

zagubov wrote: »

Tell you what. Declare independence from Scotland and declare it to be the continuator state. Everybody's been saying here that that will mean the UK's out of the EU automatically.

Although it's rather flattering, I don't think I have that power.
Anyway you live in England and so have so much to lose.

Generali

CLAPTON wrote: »

maybe so maybe not
both sides have much to lose if negotiations don't go well


would Australia sign up to a EU type deal, with massive scope creep year on year or continue as they are accepting that they could be much richer integrating with our countries ?

Australia is a member of the Asian free trade area. She is a member of what's available.

It's unreasonable to talk about scope creep when discussing the EU. The increase in scope of the EU was broadly laid out in the Treaty of Rome and isn't just thrown together on a whim by bureaucrats but signed off by national parliaments.

It suits politicians then to blame woes on the EU but it's the politicians that gave the EU the powers in the first place!

As with Scotland it's hard to see much that the EU prevents you from doing except keeping other members of the EU out of the country.

StevieJ

Generali wrote: »

As with Scotland it's hard to see much that the EU prevents you from doing except keeping other members of the EU out of the country.

It is another irony that the countries quoted by UKIP (e.g. Switzerland and Norway) have far larger immigrant populations per capita than the UK.

At the same time though, immigration and border control are now the most frequently cited reasons for leaving the EU – or at least that’s how the debate is framed, and Cameron has been struggling to come up with answers.

This is actually very odd, since Switzerland and Norway both accept more EU migrants per capita than the UK. In fact, many more.

In 2012, according to Eurostat, gross EU immigration to Switzerland was 90,107. This amounts to a gross inflow of 11.33 EU migrants per 1000 of its population. In comparison, gross EU migration to the UK was 157,554, but only at a rate of 2.48 per 1000 of its population. Norway, in the European Economic Area, also had a rate of gross EU immigration far higher than the UK, with 7.38 EU migrants per 1000 of its population

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11190269/If-EU-migration-is-the-problem-Switzerland-and-Norway-are-not-the-answer.html

Bantex_2

What influence do we have over EU decision making?