Co-op refused to change the fake £2 they gave me in change.

Azari

shaun_from_Africa wrote: »

I agree that the situation you now describe probably wouldn't be allowed, but that isn't the comment that I was referring to.

That comment was the one in which you stated that the shop assistant could face prosectution for passing fake currency, which is something that couldn't happen unless they knew or thought that it was counterfeit before passing it to the customer.

From the point in time that the customer became aware of it being fake, it then becomes a civil matter as the store would still owe them the £2 in change.

However, I can't see any prosecutions or civil action ever being taken for the sake of £2.

So, what you are saying is this:

If

1) I am given a ten pound note and don't notice it is fake.
2) I go into a shop and buy some goods and hand over the ten pound note in payment.
3) The assistant tells me the note is fake.
4) I shrug and walk out.

then I have committed no offence and if I were known to the shop staff and the police were called they would refuse to take any action.

I believe that you are wrong.

Otherwise no one would ever worry about getting fake notes as they would just pretend they hadn't noticed, and pass them on to someone else with impunity.

Of course, it is possible be that the offence would be theft (once having been made aware that the note is fake not replacing it with a genuine one would be intending to permanently deprive the shop of their due), rather than passing counterfeit money.

One would need to ask a qualified criminal lawyer to get a definitive answer.

jonesMUFCforever

Could the situation not been sorted amicably by the OP asking to exchange for 2 x £1 coins?

daytona0

The trick is to use it as payment in another shop... NOBODY checks coins and unless it is glaringly obvious then you'll be fine

dacouch

To be fair to the shop assistant, in the Co Op's current dire situation it could have seriously affected the viability of the business if they had swoped the coin

Francesanne

ScarletMarble wrote: »

If it's one of those ones celebrating like 200 years of Brunel's birth, 150 years of the London Underground etc, the picture will be upright if spin it with the Queen's neck.

Other signs include poor quality stamping, writing on side is faint, not stamped level and uneven. Even worse the writing does not correspond with the tail picture. One example I saw on the internet was a £2 coin with the 400th anniversary of the Gunpowder Plot. The edge should read ' Remember, remember the 5th November' and it had the standard 'standing on the shoulders of giants'

I was given one in my change when shopping in M&S. Went to buy some cards in Card Factory and assistant wouldn't accept the coin. Went back to M&S and explained what had happened in Card Factory and was immediately given replacement £2.00 coin without a quibble.

antrobus

Azari wrote: »

So, what you are saying is this:

If

1) I am given a ten pound note and don't notice it is fake.
2) I go into a shop and buy some goods and hand over the ten pound note in payment.
3) The assistant tells me the note is fake.
4) I shrug and walk out.

then I have committed no offence and if I were known to the shop staff and the police were called they would refuse to take any action.

I believe that you are wrong....

Nah, I believe that they are right.

Under the Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981 there is a s15 offence of passing counterfeit notes and coins, and a s16 offence of possessing counterfeit notes and coins. In both cases the offences are only committed by someone who "knows or believes" something to be a counterfeit. They are not strict liability offences; intent must be established.

Azari wrote: »

....Otherwise no one would ever worry about getting fake notes as they would just pretend they hadn't noticed, and pass them on to someone else with impunity......

No, that's about the size of it. As long as someone insists that they hadn't noticed, it's going to be difficult to prove knowledge or belief and, quite frankly the police would not be interested. Different matter of course, if plod finds that you are in possession of a wallet stuffed full of funny fifties.:)

Azari wrote: »

....Of course, it is possible be that the offence would be theft (once having been made aware that the note is fake not replacing it with a genuine one would be intending to permanently deprive the shop of their due), rather than passing counterfeit money.....

Don't see the logic of that argument. Theft requires that someone dishonestly appopriates property with the intention to permanently deprive. You can't be charged with theft on the basis that you refuse to pay for something that you haven't got.

Azari wrote: »

...One would need to ask a qualified criminal lawyer to get a definitive answer.

Well to get a definitive answer you'd need to get yourself in front of a Supreme Court judge. Or perhaps the ECHR. A criminal lawyer will just give you another opinion, albeit an informed opinion.:)

OlliesDad

I think it is fairly well established that intent is required for a criminal offence.

Marktheshark

You would be very surprised how common "passing off" is.
Passing off is when a till worker inserts counterfeit currency in to the till and then pockets the amount themselves.
Almost the perfect crime.
How dare you accuse me ?

Yes Love I am.
Now wait while I call the police.

George_Michael

Azari wrote: »

So, what you are saying is this:

If

1) I am given a ten pound note and don't notice it is fake.
2) I go into a shop and buy some goods and hand over the ten pound note in payment.
3) The assistant tells me the note is fake.
4) I shrug and walk out.

then I have committed no offence and if I were known to the shop staff and the police were called they would refuse to take any action.

I believe that you are wrong.

That scenario stated above isn't wrong, it is exactly how the law would look at it.
As others have stated, for an offence to have taken place, you must know or think that you are using fake currency.
Not noticing or knowing = no criminal offence can be committed.

If it was possible to be charged for using counterfeit currency whilst not being aware of the fact, and with an estimated 40 to 45 million fake £1 coins in circulation, I wonder how many people would be breaking the law every time they went shopping.

ThumbRemote

OlliesDad wrote: »

I think it is fairly well established that intent is required for a criminal offence.

In Strict Liability cases, no intent is required - eg driving offences, sale of alcohol to minors, and numerous others.

(Note I have no idea whether possession of forged currency is a strict liability offence, I was just commenting that intent is not always required under the law).