Panic Striken Newbie here PCN from UK Car Park Management (CPM)

dooneydd

Done. Thanks

Coupon-mad

OK so you can now send the template first appeal from the Newbies thread.

And in readiness for your POPLA appeal, you need to now establish in your own mind, the reasons why that's not a compliant NTK. Despite the photos which seems to have a time on them, there is no specified 'period of parking' is there (issue time/date is not the same). And there's nothing about specifically identifying the creditor who could be the landowner or managing agent/their client, or another party. And it's called a 'formal demand' so isn't clearly identified as a Notice to Keeper at all. Was it posted on 28th August, do you have the envelope? When did it arrive?

And I think there are not enough times/dates on that document generally (check the details in paragraph 8 of Schedule 4 of the POFA, there should be a date of posting, but this is for you to check with a fine tooth comb):

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

8(1)A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(a) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.
(2)The notice must—
(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;
(b)inform the keeper that the driver is required to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and that the parking charges have not been paid in full;
(c)state that a notice to driver relating to the specified period of parking has been given and repeat the information in that notice
(e)state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—
(i)to pay the unpaid parking charges; or
(ii)if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver;
(h)identify the creditor and specify how and to whom payment or notification to the creditor may be made;
(i)specify the date on which the notice is sent (if it is sent by post) or given (in any other case).

dooneydd

Okay, let me answer the questions

1. It has issue date of 19th July and time. As per period of parking, my offence was I parked in an unmarked bay.

2. "And there's nothing about specifically identifying the creditor who could be the landowner or managing agent/their client, or another party." - Yes, that is CORRECT

3. Yes it is a formal demand, but on the newbies thread, it was written that the NTK can also be called a ""When you have your NTK (or 'Charge Notice', or 'reminder' or 'PCN' or TNC or PCS debt collector drivel or whatever they call the first letter to keeper).

The first sentence right below Dear....... has PCN in it. I think this is a good catch on UKCPM because paragraph 6 1(a) on the POPLA page says

"The second condition is that the creditor (or a person acting for or on behalf of the creditor)—
(a)has given a notice to driver in accordance with paragraph 7, I believe this formal demand that I received is the notice POPLA is talking about.

followed by a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 8; - I believe the next letter I receive from UKCPM will be the NTK

Should I include in the template that since they didn't send me a NTK, they have contravened procedure rendering the ticket invalid, or will that me doing their job for them?

4. It must have been posted Aug 28th. It must have arrived on Friday because I checked my postbox on Thursday night and got no post. I haven't checked my post since then, so it must have arrived on friday or saturday. As for the envelope, it only reads UK Mail, and another printed box which says delivered by Royal Mail

With all the details missing which you have pointed out, it is safe to conclude that this formal demand is not an NTK. August 28th is the 43rd day after the ticket was issued. The law says they must send me an NTK between 29 - 56 days. The 56 days deadline is Sept 10. According to this formal demand, I have 28 days to "pay". That 28day deadline is Sept 24, which is waaaaaaaaay after the 56 day deadline.

So, my question is, should I respond to the formal demand using the template now, or should I wait till Sept 11 and then respond like this - copy the template and in addition to the template, I will add that the formal demand sent is clearly not an NTK according to POPLA paragraph 6 1 (a) and Paragraph 8. So their 56 day deadline has expired, rendering the ticket invalid.

Is that an appropriate course of action?

Coupon-mad

dooneydd wrote: »

Okay, let me answer the questions
1. It has issue date of 19th July and time. As per period of parking, my offence was I parked in an unmarked bay.

So? I already said the issue date isn't the same thing. And that's not a specified 'period of parking'!

2. "And there's nothing about specifically identifying the creditor who could be the landowner or managing agent/their client, or another party." - Yes, that is CORRECT

Good, you've sussed that they have to state who the 'creditor' is, and they haven't.

3. Yes it is a formal demand, but on the newbies thread, it was written that the NTK can also be called a ""When you have your NTK (or 'Charge Notice', or 'reminder' or 'PCN' or TNC or PCS debt collector drivel or whatever they call the first letter to keeper).

Yes I wrote that so people like you didn't sit and wait for something else called a 'Notice to Keeper' that will never come! I didn't mean it was 'allowed' to be called a formal demand, merely that it might be because PPC staff are generally as think as six short planks and typically they cannot draft a 'Notice to Keeper' even if you gave them a decent version and some tracing paper!

The first sentence right below Dear....... has PCN in it. I think this is a good catch on UKCPM because paragraph 6 1(a) on the POPLA page says

"The second condition is that the creditor (or a person acting for or on behalf of the creditor)—
(a)has given a notice to driver in accordance with paragraph 7, I believe this formal demand that I received is the notice POPLA is talking about.

No it's not - that was the windscreen ticket. The 'Notice to Driver' was the windscreen PCN.

followed by a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 8; - I believe the next letter I receive from UKCPM will be the NTK

No, this letter you've shown us, is their bad attempt at the NTK.

Should I include in the template that since they didn't send me a NTK, they have contravened procedure rendering the ticket invalid, or will that me doing their job for them?

You don't need to adapt the first template. Save the NTK flaws for POPLA stage.

It must have been posted Aug 28th. It must have arrived on Friday because I checked my postbox on Thursday night and got no post. I haven't checked my post since then, so it must have arrived on friday or saturday. As for the envelope, it only reads UK Mail, and another printed box which says delivered by Royal Mail

But that was well over a week ago so I don't believe it was posted then! You've only posted today to say it's just arrived! So has it only arrived THIS weekend over a week after the date on it? If so, then there's no way they posted it on 28th August and that's another flaw because there is no 'date it was sent' on the NTK (as per one of the points I put in bold from para 8).

With all the details missing which you have pointed out, it is safe to conclude that this formal demand is not an NTK.

Nope, it is their effort at one. That's what I am trying to explain to people in the Newbies thread.

So, my question is, should I respond to the formal demand using the template now, or should I wait till Sept 11 and then respond like this - copy the template and in addition to the template, I will add that the formal demand sent is clearly not an NTK according to POPLA paragraph 6 1 (a) and Paragraph 8. So their 56 day deadline has expired, rendering the ticket invalid.
Is that an appropriate course of action?

You could wait till then but there's no advantage in doing so. I already said 'OK so you can now send the template first appeal from the Newbies thread' because that IS their attempt at a NTK!

dooneydd

Thank you for clarifying. I will send the template tomorrow.

If a notice to driver has been given, any subsequent notice to keeper must be given in accordance with paragraph 8.

These are other holes I am picking out

6 1 (a) The second condition is that the creditor (or a person acting for or on behalf of the creditor)— . My formal demand just says we are authorised to manage by our client. No name of client

According to POPLA Paragraph 8 this is where they contravened

a. specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;. The formal demand says "We recently issued you a PCN to your vehicle". They didn't specify the vehicle. But the vehicle reg number is displayed. Does that count?

b and c. No parking charges apply in my case, hence no period of parking, but the offence here is No parking outside of a designated area. POPLA doesn't seem to have policies that apply to this specific offence

e. state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—. Again no creditor, but the formal demand says they requested my details from DVLA........(see end of 2nd paragraph on formal demand).

As for date, I am definitely sure it arrived on Friday.

Coupon-mad

If a notice to driver has been given, any subsequent notice to keeper must be given in accordance with paragraph 8.

YES that's right.

These are other holes I am picking out

6 1 (a) The second condition is that the creditor (or a person acting for or on behalf of the creditor)— . My formal demand just says we are authorised to manage by our client. No name of client

They are probably letting a motorist assume they themselves are the creditor - but the Notice doesn't say (as I said above it could be a list of parties).

According to POPLA Paragraph 8 this is where they contravened

a. specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;. The formal demand says "We recently issued you a PCN to your vehicle". They didn't specify the vehicle. But the vehicle reg number is displayed. Does that count?

I would say it does count so that part is compliant. I have already put in bold the bits where I think they are not compliant, in my reply above. where I quoted paragraph 8.

b and c. No parking charges apply in my case, hence no period of parking, but the offence here is No parking outside of a designated area. POPLA doesn't seem to have policies that apply to this specific offence

That's either a typo, or you are getting muddled up between POPLA (the appeals service) and POFA (the law!). As I have said, the law is mandatory so IMHO even if the contravention has nothing to do with 'unpaid parking charges', the POFA says the Notice must 'specify the unpaid parking charges'. So in your case I would expect a compliant document to state the amount of unpaid fees as zero but then explain the amount of the PCN, and how that sum has arisen. Or they could say 'the PCN sum is the amount of the unpaid parking charges' and the driver has failed to pay anything 'as at this specified date' - being a date before the date of issue of the Notice to Keeper (formal demand in their case!).

e. state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—. Again no creditor, but the formal demand says they requested my details from DVLA........(see end of 2nd paragraph on formal demand).

Requesting the details from the DVLA doesn't make them the creditor. But you've missed the end of that same sentence where it must say the NTK should be passed to the driver (it doesn't say that). As I picked out in bold already.

As for date, I am definitely sure it arrived on Friday.

A week late then?!

dooneydd

Aaaaaaah, got it. Thank you for patiently clarifying. Yes 1 week late. I am feeling so very confident now. My flatmate and I got tickets. He just started a job in England but his car is registered in Dublin. He locked up his house when he moved to England. I was just explaining to him the valuable help I am getting on here and he is asking if he can go ahead and send the template too, considering we both got tickets within days apart of each other, chances are that his NTK has been sent to Dublin. He is saying, it is likely we will get the same letter, but I told him, without seeing the exact letter, it is impossible to find holes to pick in it for POPLA Appeal. He is still insisting though, and I said it is up to him. I can't advice on something I haven't set my eyes on

Umkomaas

If his address is in the Irish Republic he is outside the jurisdiction of the England/Wales court system. Unlike you he should ignore this. Under no circumstances should he make any contact with the PPC (or any subsequent letters that may come his way from debt collectors). He should not send the template appeal.

I doubt anyway whether they can get access to his home address details from the DVLA.

dooneydd

Ah, thanks. Just told him now.

The_Deep

dooneydd wrote: »

I live in a flat. It is leasehold. I live in a development of houses and flats. Only the houses were issued permits. The flats weren't. I parked in a bay i have always parked in for 2 years and when they were assigning parking spaces, they deliberately reduced the number of parking spaces just so they can catch people and issue tickets

Yes, you have told us that several times. But what is your interest, i.e. is the parking space mentioned in your lease? Did a part of the money you paid to buy your lease for the demise property purchase a right to park.