Akward Situation...

Person_one

Georgiegirl256 wrote: »

Well that's how it comes across to me. Who's wanting to shut down the debate? Once again, I've never denied that there is an imbalance, but people's continual downer on men is why I used the phrase 'man bashing'.

To those people who fail to acknowledge that more men than ever do their fair share of housework, who does your gardening? Your DIY? Do you and the women you know do all that too, as well as domestic chores? Is that not contributing to the upkeep of the house?

Acknowledging the reality that inequalities still exist is not having a downer on men. It doesn't help anybody to ignore the issues just because there are men who are perfectly lovely and do their share who might feel a bit defensive (or their partners might).

Things are improving, but that doesn't mean everything's sorted and fine. As an example, when you break the gender pay gap down a bit more, you find that it is much less between men and women with no children. Its women with children who fall behind. Why are we not managing to make parenting more equal? After all, there are only two things a mother can do that a father can't.

Georgiegirl256

Person_one wrote: »

Acknowledging the reality that inequalities still exist is not having a downer on men.

No (otherwise you could accuse me of that to as I have acknowledged that they do exist), but quidsy's attitude as displayed in their posts is IMO.

quidsy

Georgiegirl, I have said it numerous times, I know that many men do their fair share & my comments have never been specifically about housework alone. This is starting to get a bit repetative tbh. But as you asked, for us diy etc comes under the general banner of house hold chores and either or, do it, we both are capable.

Raising the issue of gender inequality is not "man bashing" making factual statement about the gender inequality in the Uk is not "man bashing", raising awareness in others of the issue is not "man bashing".

Defending a position that even with the advances many men have made in equality & with the improvements for women within the gender gap, there is still too much that needs to be done to improve things further, is again, not "man bashing".

Remove the emotion & look the issue objectively. There is no specific "man", there is no individual man that this relates to, it is a general term in the concept of gender. One gender is female, one gender is male. If women are still being held back in aspects iof life based on gender, that means that the other gender, in this instance, man, is given more, opportunities, rights & power.

FBaby

Why do you think that might be?

That's what we've been debating for the last two pages! We both agree that it is a lack of interest in these subjects, why though, that's open to views. I do think that parental influence has quite a huge part in it. I do think it is to do with ambition and that also often comes from their parents. My DD has said that some girls already talk about how they will get married and then have a baby and stay at home to look after them. I don't think many boys in her class have expressed that same ambition!!

So who will do the low paid jobs? Do they matter?

It's not about everyone getting a well paid job, it's about linking a better paid job with the likelihood of continuing to work after having children and either ending up less likely to do housework if the partner is at home or working part-time. The same principle applies for those on lower income in that I would expect that if both work full-time, both would share equally the amount of housework they do.

Should parents of boys also be encouraging them to take an interest in caring, in the arts, in languages and in the social sciences/humanities? The numbers in those fields may benefit from a bit of evening out, gender-wise, too.

I've never said that parents should pro-actively encourage their kids to have an interest in a field over another. My view is that the influence is not commanded. I have always told my kids that studying for a career that interest them is what they should aim for. However we do discuss jobs that are difficult to get, salaries associated to certain job because even though money is not everything, it certainly is nicer to do a job that you love if it also pays well, that in the end, they can accomplish anything they want if they are prepared to work hard for it.

FBaby

Acknowledging the reality that inequalities still exist is not having a downer on men. It doesn't help anybody to ignore the issues just because there are men who are perfectly lovely and do their share who might feel a bit defensive (or their partners might).

It's a pity that men don't seem as keen to talk about their feelings on social forums. If they did, I wonder whether there would be a thread 21 pages long going on about how there is still inequalities between genders and that women are still seen as the best carers for children, and that it is still the tradition that the man should be the one going to work full-time and support his family despite the fact that they would be happy to be the one staying at home and doing al the cleaning, that things have got a bitter with women more prepared to do their bit to contribute towards the family finances, but there is still a long way to go until they do more in that regards...

CH27

Person_one wrote: »

See, does that not sound a bit like you're blaming the OP for the fact that her partner doesn't pull his weight? Its not her responsibility to train him or supervise him, is it?

And that is why I told her to leave his chores for him to do instead of nagging him or doing it herself.

Georgiegirl256

quidsy wrote: »

Georgiegirl, I have said it numerous times, I know that many men do their fair share & my comments have never been specifically about housework alone. This is starting to get a bit repetative tbh. But as you asked, for us diy etc comes under the general banner of house hold chores and either or, do it, we both are capable.

Raising the issue of gender inequality is not "man bashing" making factual statement about the gender inequality in the Uk is not "man bashing", raising awareness in others of the issue is not "man bashing".

Defending a position that even with the advances many men have made in equality & with the improvements for women within the gender gap, there is still too much that needs to be done to improve things further, is again, not "man bashing".

Remove the emotion & look the issue objectively. There is no specific "man", there is no individual man that this relates to, it is a general term in the concept of gender. One gender is female, one gender is male. If women are still being held back in aspects iof life based on gender, that means that the other gender, in this instance, man, is given more, opportunities, rights & power.

There is no emotion, and I'm well aware we aren't talking about a specific man, but we are just going round in circles here and are never going to agree, so I'll leave you to debate it out with the others that disagree with your views.

poet123

Person_one wrote: »

Acknowledging the reality that inequalities still exist is not having a downer on men. It doesn't help anybody to ignore the issues just because there are men who are perfectly lovely and do their share who might feel a bit defensive (or their partners might).

Things are improving, but that doesn't mean everything's sorted and fine. As an example, when you break the gender pay gap down a bit more, you find that it is much less between men and women with no children. Its women with children who fall behind. Why are we not managing to make parenting more equal? After all, there are only two things a mother can do that a father can't.

Part of the "problem" is that after having children many women do not want to return to work full time, do not want to prioritise their careers. They want a better work life balance, and many women can achieve that, but it comes at the expense of that pay gap. I wanted to stay at home with my children when they were young, most men cannot do that, they are expected to continue to do what they did prior to having a family.

Person_one

Yes, there are major inequalities along gender lines when it comes to parenting, that's what I said, isn't it?

PenguinJim

Person_one wrote: »

In 25% of households, according to PJ's figures. Is that 'many'?

Yes, around four million couple-based households in the UK and rising (out of a little over 12 million). Many =/= majority, as you are well aware, of course.

Bear in mind that those households aren't just the ones where the men do an equal share, but also where they do more (therefore, it's not just a "neutral" figure, but also weighs the analysis against women doing more housework). The figures don't seem to exist for a per-hours analysis, but when you see headline-grabbing facts like "8 out of 10 women do more housework than men", it might be that 8 out of 10 women do an extra thirty seconds a week. When the men do more, it might be an extra thirty hours a week. Or vice versa, of course! Those tabloid facts barely scratch the surface of reality.

Not that man-haters would let pesky things like muddy statistics or the meanings of words get in the way of a good anti-man rant, of course.

quidsy wrote: »

With regard the rest, i was asked some specific questions abotu how many couples etc etc, I talk to my gf & i know who has jobs in those couples. So not a huge amount of hours needed to know, unless of course girlie chats over wine time can be counted.

So you asked the women in the relationships who did the most housework, and the women said that the women did the most work. And without doing anything to verify this, you decided that it was worth stating to us as a fact that out of ALL of your friends the women always do the most housework? You don't need me to remind you of the difference between estimated and diarised statistics... well, apparently you do.

If you don't think this undermines your position when discussing a topic based quite heavily on facts and statistics, I really think that there's no hope for you.

I do wonder in which country you grew up and how many months ago you moved to the UK, though, as that might be relevant to your prejudices and may also explain your... non-conformist approaches to maths and English.