The rise of Extremism in Economically tough times

lostinrates

My take is that its entirely possible to be pro more independence and NOT racist. I think I remain that way inclined, despite wanting to maintain trade links, and employment opportunities in each direction, and the right for people to move else where and come here under certain circumstances and perhaps relinquishing rights to benefits they feel they have accrued here , or sending stuff here out of the country...not sure about that, I am not well enough educated on the subject. We've, my husband and I' benefited from fluid borders, and I cannot understand why many more people don't make opportunity for better retirements or employment opportunities and housing options and work like models they admire.


BUT, while I understand the difference my feeling is a lot of UKIP voters ARE xenophobic. While there might be a totally not bigoted argument to bring to the table a lot of bigoted people have got behind it because its seen as the publically acceptable face of 'we not racist, us' rascism and xenophoibia.

As people who CHOSE Europe actively, and UK, having genetic right to be here if we didn't but a preference to be despite our rights to choose OTHER places to live in Europe and beyond DH and I listen to the news and frankly have worried a little.

Dh's English side of family have been here literally centuries. Like many Jews his family tree is very complicated and multinational, and his 'other home' is not Israel but Italy. If Europe doesn't want us Israel would not feel 'home ' to him and certainly not to me. We both have a toe in the states, the only other place we have in common, but he's NYC and I am most certainly not! but suppose would have to adapt to being if Europe didn't want us.

Interestingly, I'm infact we, look and sound perfectly 'English' and have English cultural affiliations and understanding. I've always felt 'at home any where, but most of all here' but was saying to day will this always be the case? Its all very well officially not being wanted but if the 'vibe' becomes increasingly hostile to 'other' then for a start Britain, a beautifully richly cultural place for Centuries is going to be confused, but its also going to be rather uncomfortable for a LOT of people.

wymondham

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

So you'd vote against a politician if they were a privileged, public school educated, former banker, who claimed millions in expenses, rarely bothered voting, and employed their family members as staff for example?

Or do you make exceptions for the ones that do that if they're in UKIP?

Like Nigel Farrage?

As far as I can see Nigel didn't leave uni and go into politics he had a job first?

GeorgeHowell

lostinrates wrote: »

A duty to its own people isn't necessarily at odds with EU. Sometimes children don't want to go to school and parents have to make them because its for their own good. Sometimes people don't want to pay taxes and we enforce it, for 'our ' own good etc etc etc.

( I'm not arguing in either direction ATM just saying that the two are not always in opposition, but sometimes people make really poorly informed decisions).

It's true that governments have to show leadership (not that many of ours do). If we had referenda on everything there would be ridiculous non-viable, contradictory, and unaffordable rag bag of decisons emerging (again some might say isn't that more or less what we have anyway !).

But shared sovereignty versus sole sovereignty is a pretty fundamental and potentially irrevocable decision. If we had a written constitution there would surely be safeguards against its being whacked it without by your leave like it has been.

If all our major parties are so convinced that it's the right way forward, for our own good etc then it's up them to persuade us of that, and then give us the opportunity to make the final decision. The trouble is that's not how the EU does things, and the EU already calls most of the shots.

wymondham

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Why does this ring alarm bells?

You sound like a mainstream politician if you are asking why..

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

What damage will be done that is "irreversible"?

Fill up the country by bad policies - how do you empty it again? Much better to prevent a problem don't you think?

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Why is this an issue of "patriotism"?

The UK Government should always do what is best for the UK. I don't feel this is the case....

globalds

The thing is the immigration issue really is secondary.

I would say the immigration from the commonwealth during days gone by has been the cause of more anger and reactionary behaviour.

This previous Immigration has in my opinion made the UK a much more comfortable place with the notion of European free movement.

lostinrates

GeorgeHowell wrote: »

It's true that governments have to show leadership (not that many of ours do). If we had referenda on everything there would be ridiculous non-viable, contradictory, and unaffordable rag bag of decisons emerging (again some might say isn't that more or less what we have anyway !).

But shared sovereignty versus sole sovereignty is a pretty fundamental and potentially irrevocable decision. If we had a written constitution there would surely be safeguards against its being whacked it without by your leave like it has been.

If all our major parties are so convinced that it's the right way forward, for our own good etc then it's up them to persuade us of that, and then give us the opportunity to make the final decision. The trouble is that's not how the EU does things, and the EU already calls most of the shots.

If implementation were not different in different eu countries my husband would have to work in a different area of law. If EU called all the shots implementation wouldn't be so varied, surely, and for example, qualifications here would be equally applicable in other eu countries? ( not the case in more than one job!)

( fwiw I am with you about shared sovereignty, but, I feel we can argue more for the kind of marriage where we keep our own independent bank account so as well as shared ones rather than stake a 'surrendered wife' position .

Bantex_2

lostinrates wrote: »

If implementation were not different in different eu countries my husband would have to work in a different area of law. If EU called all the shots implementation wouldn't be so varied, surely, and for example, qualifications here would be equally applicable in other eu countries? ( not the case in more than one job!)

And on the other hand, the NHS are virtually forced to employ doctors with poor english and are not allowed to discriminate on a basis of poor language skills with EU citizens. Sounds mad to me.

lostinrates

Bantex wrote: »

And on the other hand, the NHS are virtually forced to employ doctors with poor english and are not allowed to discriminate on a basis of poor language skills with EU citizens. Sounds mad to me.

I see a lot of doctors and nurses, and have taken my parents to appointments with others. I have yet to see one I was unable to understand ( although the British one I saw last Wednesday spoke insanely quickly).

Oh. That's not true actually, I saw an a and e doctor many years ago who I struggled to understand ( not eu) and an Egyptian radiographer.


The best NHS unit I have used HANDS down is a private run as NHS place staffed mainly by Polish nurses and surgeons, I have taken both parents there, and saw the Egyptian radiographer there, ( infact my whole family has see the radiographer there at some point). Its outstandingly good and the English spoken is better than my many English medical professionals and graduates.

I am wondering if this is a matter of 'implementation'. I know foreign doctors in other eu countries, I have a friend who is one!, but I also know he is very capable in the language and wouldn't be employed if he were not.

shaggydoo

vivatifosi wrote: »

It annoyed me watching the commentary to see a lot of liberal commentators saying this. They are not seeing what is in front of their face.

What is in front of your face is a man who is the descendant of French, German & Belgium immigrants who wants to kick the ladder out from everyone else.....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2257811/UKIP-Belgian-baiter-leader-Nigel-Farage-family-links--Belgium.html

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/396897/Great-grandfather-of-Ukip-leader-Nigel-Farage-was-born-to-German-immigrants

You couldn't make it up!

Bantex_2

shaggydoo wrote: »

What is in front of your face is a man who is the descendant of French, German & Belgium immigrants who wants to kick the ladder out from everyone else.....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2257811/UKIP-Belgian-baiter-leader-Nigel-Farage-family-links--Belgium.html

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/396897/Great-grandfather-of-Ukip-leader-Nigel-Farage-was-born-to-German-immigrants

You couldn't make it up!

It is not about kicking out ladders, it is about doing what is best for the UK. Many immigrants are good for the country, some are not and we should be in a position to chose which enter.

Why is that such a difficult concept?