The rise of Extremism in Economically tough times

Thrugelmir

Better_Call_Saul wrote: »

I'm aware of the deficit and I'm struggling to find any post where I mentioned a magic tree. Maybe money could be found by a number of measures including not handing out tax giveaways to try and win general elections. Not giving pensioners benefits they don't want as a vote buyer in the run up to general elections. Scrapping the high speed trains until more important issues are dealt with, closing tax loopholes, collecting the tax the government is owed more efficiently, not giving away free school meals until there are enough local school places for all kids. These are my ideas to save and raise revenue I'm sure others would disagree.

Part of the budget deficit is structural. None of the mainstream political parties wishes to address this issue. As stark choices will have to be made. There simply isn't enough money to fund everything on the agenda. We live in a world of perceived entitlement. In any election most people vote with their pockets not what's best for everyone.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

GeorgeHowell wrote: »

Concerns about the economic and social effect of mass immigration in an already overcrowded country

This country is not overcrowded.

Just 2.3% of England built on, the figure is even lower for the UK as a whole.

-- strains on the NHS, education, social services etc.

Can easily be solved by more efficient use of what are often very inefficiently run services, and expansion where required.

There's a feeling among many that the indigenous population are becoming second class citizens, marginalised in their own country in favour of every 'minority' going.

Irrational, illogical, highly emotive, rabble rousing whipped up by the tabloid press. And often perpetuated by politicians eager to blame the EU bogeyman for their own failings.

Show me proof, show me widespread examples (not the odd exception to the rule exaggerated out of all proportion by the tabloid press), and perhaps it's a conversation worth having.

Concerns about the EU, lack of control of our destiny, how much we put in for limited apparent benefit,

How is it we don't control our own destiny?

As a member of the EU we have a seat at the table, and influence. As an outsider looking in, but obligated to follow the rules to maintain free trade, we'd be in a far worse position. As the Norwegian PM recently admitted.

the human rights fiasco,

Nothing to do with the EU.

The ECHR is not an EU institution, and withdrawing form the EU would not remove Britain from it's jurisdiction.

creeping federalisation.

Perhaps you could provide some examples? And also provide a rational explanation for why you think it's a bad thing?

Away from southern and Eastern England in particular, a feeling of detachment, that those in control -- predominantly perceived to be the London metropolitan elite -- have little understanding or concern about the conditions elsewhere in terms of unemployment, declining industries, lack of investment, the cost of living etc.

A feeling that has been present and just as strong as it is today in every recession in British history.... Yet has nothing to do with the EU.

A general feeling that politicians of all major parties are not listening to the concerns of ordinary people with ordinary lives on practically every front, and a feeling that if something like UKIP gives them a major shake up and forces them to listen, then voting for it is worth a punt.

So a protest vote then.

CLAPTON

setmefree2 wrote: »

I still don't understand why people are voting for UKIP. But yes thanks for your posts.

By the way, UKIP have said the Cultured, Educated and Young don't vote for UKIP why do you think that is?

Given that the majority are not Cultured, Educated and Young, do you want a government system (like say the EU) that ignores the views of the majority?

Graham_Devon

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Or indeed, how a socially liberal and economically right of centre voter like me can see any benefit from UKIP's position on any issues.

Hamish, your argument has often been that UKIP voters are "ill educated" and others which you have backed up have suggested they are "frothers".

Thing is, it's clear here that UKIP voters are responding intellectually and in depth in response to this thread as to the reasons they felt they were best served by voting UKIP.

We haven't really had anything from you in response to any of these reasons. All we've had is yet more slurs of bigotism, racism etc. The very fact that it's you throwing these insults around and then going on to claim others are ill educated seems to me to be ambiguous.

What I'm suggesting to you is that instead of simply smearing UKIP voters and claiming they are ill educated, maybe you look at their reasoned, in depth explanations for voting the way they did.

You are never going to change peoples feelings, nor understand them, if all you do in response is belittle or insult them.

Thrugelmir

Originally Posted by HAMISH_MCTAVISH View Post
Or indeed, how a socially liberal and economically right of centre voter like me can see any benefit from UKIP's position on any issues.

From a broad European perspective disillusionment is coming from across the political spectrum. So there's obviously many facets that aren't acceptable on a National level to many people.

Better_Call_Saul

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Part of the budget deficit is structural. None of the mainstream political parties wishes to address this issue. As stark choices will have to be made. There simply isn't enough money to fund everything on the agenda. We live in a world of perceived entitlement. In any election most people vote with their pockets not what's best for everyone.

I agree with much of that. However, the way UKIP wishes to deal with it doesn't appeal to me in the slightest. A focused approach concentrating on structural reform of housing, health and education/employment is definitely needed but the UKIP way? No, not for me. They're a party who pray on people's fears and nothing more as far as I'm concerned.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Graham_Devon wrote: »

This should hopefully explain it.

Very helpful, thanks....

Your articles say that there are two issues with tax in Europe.

The first is that companies currently pay VAT in their base country, not the country in which sales are made.

In 2015 the EU VAT rules are due to change, meaning the country of residence of the purchaser will determine the VAT rate, not he country that the company is based in.

So that solves that issue.

The second issue is one of countries involved in a race to the bottom with corporation tax to attract employment and businesses to their country, which could only really be solved by Europe wide legislation.

What's blocking that legislation?

Oh dear.... It seems we are.

From your article....

British chancellors (both Labour and Conservative) have repeatedly stuck to the line that taxation is a matter of national sovereignty and that further EU-wide rules on corporation tax are unwelcome.

We could sort it at UK level if we were "on our own".

Which is an interesting perspective, because your article says the opposite.

To be precise....

"Little-Britainism won't help us here."

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Hamish, your argument has often been that UKIP voters are "ill educated"

Actually, that's not my argument.

It's based in polling data which shows the typical UKIP supporter is old, white, male, and educated to lower than average standards.

Don't shoot the messenger....

setmefree2

CLAPTON wrote: »

Given that the majority are not Cultured, Educated and Young, do you want a government system (like say the EU) that ignores the views of the majority?

So we should pander to the uncultured, uneducated and old?

Can someone help me understand this :-

After the council elections, UKIP spokeswoman Suzanne Evans (UKIP) took London to task, and hammered away at the cultural and income divides between Britain’s capital and the rest of the country. According to Evans: “I think it’s simple, and I think most people understand. London is its own person, its own body, its own individual character. It’s very different from the rest of the country. Look at the social demographic—you have the sort of metropolitan elite who cannot really understand the heartache and the pain people around the country are feeling.”

What" heartache and pain" !!!!!!? Seriously?

GeorgeHowell

CLAPTON wrote: »

Given that the majority are not Cultured, Educated and Young, do you want a government system (like say the EU) that ignores the views of the majority?

Whether they are cultured and educated or not the young are more impressionable and susceptible to peer pressure. UKIP simply isn't "cool". Tied to this is thinly veiled ageism that I've seen a lot of, implying that only sad old gits wouls support UKIP. Interesting how the left are quick to support and defend hard-working families when they do their duty - ie vote Labour. Now it becomes clear that a lot of UKIP support comes from ordinary working people, they are vilified as thick, ignorant, little Englander, and a lot worse adjectives. Anti-elitism only maintains as long as the non-elite behave themselves and do what the self-appointed elite wants.