Perception vs Reality

N1AK

Conrad wrote: »

Generali - many proud working class trades people wanting to earn a decent days pay (often self employed on a building site) have to prostitute themselves for halve pay thanks to the army of cut priced migrants.

To risk sounding rather uncaring: so what?

Anyone who buys clothes put together abroad (basically everyone), who buys any imported food, who drives a car put together abroad, who goes on holiday abroad, who buys pretty much any electronic device or who uses energy is paying foreigners to do something that in days past would largely have been produced by British workers.

How is it better to put a shoemaker in Northampton out of business by buying cheaper shoes made abroad than to drop a builders wage by allowing someone from abroad to enter the market.

Is your perspective really so narrow that you think people whose jobs are geographically constrained deserve protection from competition but everyone else should be left swinging in the winds of the global market.

Bantex_2

N1AK wrote: »

To risk sounding rather uncaring: so what?

Anyone who buys clothes put together abroad (basically everyone), who buys any imported food, who drives a car put together abroad, who goes on holiday abroad, who buys pretty much any electronic device or who uses energy is paying foreigners to do something that in days past would largely have been produced by British workers.

How is it better to put a shoemaker in Northampton out of business by buying cheaper shoes made abroad than to drop a builders wage by allowing someone from abroad to enter the market.

Is your perspective really so narrow that you think people whose jobs are geographically constrained deserve protection from competition but everyone else should be left swinging in the winds of the global market.

So you think that driving down wages is a good thing?

dktreesea

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

And you seem to be one of those people that completely ignores the actual evidence and data, and instead relies on myths, anecdotes, and fallacies to 'support' your case.

You actually believe in 'The Lump Of Labour Fallacy'.:rotfl:

I can't really have a sensible discussion with you as long as that remains the case.....



Please, do yourself a favour, go and read a good economics textbook before making any more absurd assertions like the above.

Just.... wow.

First of all, nowhere have I claimed that the total jobs available are fixed. I'm quite willing to accept that immigration usually causes the total number of jobs to increase. And if the number of jobs were to increase beyond the number of new immigrants seeking work in any one year, then I would support your stance.

And yet our youth unemployment rate remains stubbornly high, in spite of the growth in the overall jobs available, not withstanding the bulk of that growth (Jan to March 2014 quarter, ONS) appears to be in self employment, rather than PAYE type work.

The unemployment rate of those over 50 continues to grow, in spite of the apparent growth in the number of jobs available.

What is the point of having a labour market with 1 million, or even 2 million vacancies, if the employers would rather contract out the work, instead of employing people directly, to people who can afford to work for less than the NMW and all the associated costs to the employer that come with it, like holiday pay, NI employer contributions and the like?

dktreesea

N1AK wrote: »

If you live in a place with virtually no immigrants and are still terrified of them and think your town is alien to you because of them then you're either mad or racist. I'm pretty sure the people here are the latter. Pretending that racism has nothing at all to do with the rise of UKIP would be to ignore reality.



In which case you're suggesting that we continue to allow sufficient foreign workers to come in to stop a shortage of staff from increasing wages. Which means that the current level of immigration is likely required (as that is what is currently keeping wages down).

You can be as disspointed as you want Graham but I said you're incapable of thinking further ahead because you repeatedly demonstrate it. It is blatantly obvious that a consequence of severely restricting immigration, especially of low skilled or low paid workers, would lead to a considerable increase in the cost of employing carers.[/QUOTE]

And if such restrictions mean that care home owners and their clients have to pay for a care provided by workers receiving at least a living wage, and one that would be high enough to exclude them from the benefits system, that would, imho, be a great outcome.

dktreesea

Generali wrote: »

Prices are set by supply and demand. The problems of the aging population are just starting to kick in.

If we're talking specifically about care workers they most often, AIUI, earn the minimum wage. As it is illegal to pay below the minimum wage, legal immigration should have no impact on these wages.

Of course, as the US has found, if you decide to place heavy restrictions on immigration when you have strong demand for labour, illegal immigration results. That leads to some terrible abuses of workers and huge enforcement costs.

If we have such a strong demand for labour, how is it we have so many unskilled and semi skilled workers who are unemployed? Surely we should be employing them ahead of any immigrant with equivalent skills?

dktreesea

Generali wrote: »

Water prices are set by Government diktat. Using water prices as an example of how supply and demand doesn't set prices, unless Governments directly intervene in the market to set a price, is thus muddle headed at best or, more likely, you not having a clue. Again.

The NMW is set by Government diktat. The fact that it exists distorts the supply/demand model for determining price for practically everything sold in Britain.

Thrugelmir

Generali wrote: »

You'll almost never meet a born-and-bred Aussie taxi driver for example. It's pretty rare to buy a coffee or get a cheap haircut from one either.

The treatment of the native Aussies was a disgrace. Arguably still is.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

dktreesea wrote: »

If we have such a strong demand for labour, how is it we have so many unskilled and semi skilled workers who are unemployed?

'Round my way' in the north east of Scotland there are three job vacancies for every job seeker and unemployment of circa 2%.

I suppose it must be that all the "many unskilled and semi skilled workers who are unemployed" just can't read a train timetable or figure out how to catch a megabus...

Or more plausibly, they can't be bothered getting off their ar5es and moving to where the jobs are....

Perhaps our benefits system needs reformed? So that all these people supposedly looking for work actually do a bit of... well... you know, looking?

CLAPTON

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

'Round my way' in the north east of Scotland there are three job vacancies for every job seeker and unemployment of circa 2%.

I suppose it must be that all the "many unskilled and semi skilled workers who are unemployed" just can't read a train timetable or figure out how to catch a megabus...

Or more plausibly, they can't be bothered getting off their ar5es and moving to where the jobs are....

Perhaps our benefits system needs reformed? So that all these people supposedly looking for work actually do a bit of... well... you know, looking?

how would a few million new immigrants in the London and the SE solve your problem
or are you making a point about the benefits system in Scotland?

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

CLAPTON wrote: »

how would a few million new immigrants in the London and the SE solve your problem

How does having a few hundred thousand unemployed native Brits in the North of England solve my problem?

The fact is that the native born population cannot be bothered to move to where the work is.

Immigrants, by definition, can.

For whatever reason, many Brits feel entitled to sit at home watching TV and claiming benefits while immigrants just get on with it and get a job.

Solve that problem first, and the population problem, and the medical advances for aged people problem, and the deficit projection under low migration scenario problem, and then come and say we don't need immigration....

Until then, you're making the equivalent argument to cutting off our own legs now in the hope that one day bionic legs might be invented and might be better and might be affordable....