Arval UK - Paid PCN and now want me to pay them

ColliesCarer

Regarding their T&Cs - even if speculative invoices for parking are covered by the section below (which I would question) then

10.1 In respect of any responsibility, claims, liabilities, losses, damages, or expenses, including legal fees, and any liability resulting from legislation or the payment of fines or penalties for parking, driving or similar offences or contraventions in connection with Vehicles (the "Liability"):
(a)ARVAL has no responsibility for the Liability; So why did they take responsibility for it?

(b) the Hirer accepts all responsibility for the Liability including taking all appropriate action; If they consider it's your responsibility why didn't they pass it to you for you to take all appropriate action?

Seems to me they have broken their own T&Cs

jojojosie

I have just sent Arval the following email


Thank you for providing me witha copy of my contract and the PCN.



Before I go any further I would like clearing up why during my first phone call I was informed that you are not a member of the BVRLA. I asked your agent if all calls are recorded and they confirmed that are.



I was very surprised therefore when I spoke to the BVRLA that they confirmed Arval UK are actually a member.



The BVRLA also confirm that they have entered a memorandum of understanding with the BPA regarding ParkingCharge Notice’s. This information was communicated to all members.



http://www.bvrla.co.uk/news/new-agreement-private-parking-notices



It’s a shame that Arval do not appear to invest properly in staff training as this could have saved both parties the hassle of dealing with administrative errors.



If they did you would know that your only obligation is to pass on my details and again the BVRLA advise this is the advice they give to all their members as best practise.



Please let me make my response to your email maintaining I remain liable for the invoice





10. LIABILITY AND INDEMNITY

10.1 In respect of any responsibility, claims, liabilities, losses,damages, or expenses, including legal fees, and any liability resulting from legislation for the payment of fines or penalties for parking, driving or similar offences or contraventions in connection with Vehicles (the "Liability"): (a)ARVAL has no responsibility for the Liability; (b) the Hirer accepts all responsibility for the Liability including taking all appropriate action; and(c) the Hirer indemnifies ARVAL and holds ARVAL harmless against the Liability.ARVAL shall be entitled to charge the Hirer a reasonable administration fee forany work carried out or documentation processed relating to the Liability.



I have highlighted the key wording so you can easily identify it. My contract as per 10.1 clearly only covers fines and penalties. I am happy to honour my part of the contract in relation to any fines or penalties.



Currently these can only be issued by Police or Local council should you require clarity.



What you have paid is a Parking Charge Notice. If you reread the notice to owner that you sent me a copy of you will find it clearly described as such in sentence one with words two, three and four. It is also mentioned again as a Parking charge Notice in the second sentence in paragraph 2.



I have provided the BPA’s definition for clarity. Taken from here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/BPA_Code_of_Practice_2012_Version_1_October_2012.pdf





Parking charge notice (PCN) means the document given

to the driver (or sent to the vehicle keeper or hirer) by

the car park owner or operator for breaching the parking

contract, or for trespassing. Parking charge notices ask for

payment of parking charges





The same code of practise also asks BPA members to avoid calling a parking charge notice by the abbreviation PCN unless they clearly define it as a parking charge notice first. This is to avoid people becoming unnecessarily confused with Penalty Charge Notices.



Parking charge notices are not a legally enforceable penalty and relate to an alleged breach of contract. These are a civil matter.



You incorrectly refer to the Parking charge notice in your response to me as a penalty charge notice. A penalty charge notice would be covered under the lease agreement









A PCN is a Penalty Charge Notice, this is covered within section titled ‘Liability and Indemnity’ of your contract. This refers to payment of fines or penalties for parking, driving or similar offences incurred by Arval relating in any respect to Vehicles hired. Due to this the charge against invoice XXXXXX is due and payable and has not been charged in error.



It remains blindingly obvious that a parking charge notice and a penalty charge notice are two entirely differing things in law. It is also blatantly clear that what you refer to in your reply as a penalty charge is in fact a parking charge and not cover in my contractual obligations.



I am surprised that Arval has decided to pay an invoice thatyou have absolutely no legal liability to pay. Having mistakenly paid that invoice you have no right to pass the costs of such a mistake on to me.






To make my position perfectly clear I would like to reiterate the following points:


1) That any contract would have been between myself and Smart Parking. It would have been a private contract and Arval would not have been party to it.
2) Arval’s terms and conditions of my lease have no bearing on an unconnected private contract between individuals.
3) Arval had no liability for any claim under the contract that is alleged to have existed between myself and Smart Parking .
4) Arval therefore erroneously paid the invoice that they received from Smart Parking.

5) In issuing an invoice against a parking charge notice that Arval received and paid in error and in charging for the perceived costs of their mistake Arval acted outside the terms of my lease agreement with Arval.
6) If Arval proceed to request the direct debit in relation to this error I will immediately inform my bank to reverse the action as per the Direct Debit Guarantee.

7) I will honour all due monies relating to correct charges by debit card within 3 working days.



Can you please confirm that you have now cancelled the invoice that I have clearly demonstrated has been issued outside the boundaries of my lease agreement.

Coupon-mad

Nice one! Let us know when they back down.

Stroma

Very well done, please keep us informed on this

ampersand

Well done jojojosie - it's a cracker.

jojojosie

Just received an email saying this has been passed to the fine manager and invoice has been put into dispute

Half_way

I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if this fine manager is as clueless as the rest of them.

jojojosie

They replied with the following lol.




Regarding the charge notice against invoice XXXXX.

We have contacted the authority who have confirmed that no contact or representation had been made to them in relation to this fine. No attempt has been made to either pay or appeal this fine with the authority.

As mentioned previously when Arval receive details of any parking fines, bus lane contraventions, congestion fines, as well as intended prosecutions and unpaid tolls, Arval’s policy is to pay all fines upon receipt in order to reduce risk. Delays or failure to pay and deal with these could lead to increased costs to you and the possible instruction of debt collection or bailiffs.

We appreciate that you are disputing the validity of the fine based on the fact that this was levied by a private parking company, however Smart Parking are a registered operator with the BPA (British Parking Association) and will have been acting on behalf of the landowner. Upon entering the car park there will be signage which will set out the conditions of which the driver is authorised to park, be that by payment of the appropriate paid parking tariff or by parking within a limited stay period or similar, and that a Parking Charge will be payable, if the conditions are not met.

This would be covered in your contractual agreement under section 10 – Liability and Indemnity – which refer to fines or penalties for parking, driving or similar offences or contraventions in connection with vehicles.

The charge is a valid charge and is not an error. However as a gesture of goodwill in this instance only Arval have agreed to refund the charge against invoice VS0001101139. A credit note for £100.00 is being processed and you will shortly be in receipt of the credit note for your records.

Please be aware however that should we receive any further fines or charge notices regarding this vehicle then Arval’s policy is to pay these and charge the customer accordingly.

If you wish to avoid any further charges from Arval relating to fines/charges then as mentioned in a previous e-mail we can arrange for ‘Transfer of Liability’.

If you would like future Parking Fines to be passed to you to pay, please can you read the below information and confirm by return that you would like us to set this up on your account going forward.
Transfer of Liability
All fines are posted from the issuing authorities to Arval as we are the registered keeper of the vehicle, our standard process is to pay all fines upon receipt.
If you wish to pay parking fines to the authority directly we can set up 'Transfer of Liability', this means we will not pay the fine, but send a copy of your contract to the issuing authority to contact you directly. The administration fee to send your contract is £25.00 + VAT for each fine.

jojojosie

Replied back with

Thanks for the goodwill gesture.

It's still not a fine.

I don't wish to transfer liability for future hypothetical instances and will deal with them on a case by case basis where appropriate/

Stroma

Which means they have spoken to their legal department, and they have been told they have no chance with the small claims.

Well done for the persistence and seeing this through.