Arval UK - Paid PCN and now want me to pay them

bod1467

I didn't. My original query was theoretical in nature - laying the ground rules in anticipation of any such charge being levied - so there was nothing real-world to resolve at the time.

Here is what the lease companies said:

Alphabet:
Many thanks for your email. Whilst I cannot comment or express an opinion on the [Company] car policy I can advise that Alphabet are dealing with any fines or parking charge notices received in accordance with what was agreed in the MHA and at implementation. There was a change in the law on the 1st October 2012 with regards to parking charge notices received from private parking companies when the Protection of Freedoms Act came into force. This act gives private parking operators the right to demand the payment of a parking charge notice by the registered keeper of a vehicle (rather than the driver as previously). If Alphabet receives such a demand then unless we can show that, at the time the vehicle was parked it was stolen or not actually registered to Alphabet, we pay and reclaim the charge from [Company] as agreed.
I hope this helps but if you have any questions please let me know

ALD:
Private parking companies now come under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and have to adhere to strict guidelines. The law governing private parking companies changed in September 2012. It may be that [Company] have to change the wording of their UK Car Policy to include “invoices from private parking companies”, but this would be down to their own legal people. If you need anything further please let me know

Arval:
We appreciate the drivers concern with the parking fines & we have already consulted with the legal team regarding this matter. Arval should be paying fines upon receipt or transfer the liability to the client. If we were to do this, it would have to be the whole account.
The fines team do however check certain parking authorities if we are under any suspicion they are not fully compliant with the British parking association.
The driver has a right to seek legal advice, but should not research private parking companies using internet forums etc as this can be out dated. The driver also needs to be aware of the 'protection of freedoms act' 2012 (section 4) which advises the registered keeper are responsible for the charges of private land fines if the driver is not known at the time or the offence is caught on a camera operated device.
We advise all drivers to make sure they are aware of the terms on site for any car park or council regulated parking spaces & roads to avoid these charges.
I trust this is as required however should you require any further information, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Ogilvie:
The MCHA does not differentiate when talking about fines, between authorities.
I think this is going to keep going backwards and forwards [person] if the driver does not get the response that he wants. Really I think he needs to be referred back to his company if he has an issue with processes that they have agreed.
From what I understand, he is not currently disputing a fine.

I am unclear as to what MHA and MCHA mean.

Guys_Dad

If they charge your card, be sure to raise a dispute with the card company and ask for a charge back.

You will need to tell the card company why you are disputing and you will need to keep it simple.

The t&c on your agreement should refer to traffic fines and not PPC charges which are civil invoices. That will be the cornerstone of your claim and also the POFA clauses which specifically cover hirers' obligations.

They may, however, have some wording under admin charges that could land you with some smaller fee.

Coupon-mad

Even though this example was before POFA 2012 it's still a good one to read and learn from the tone of the emails (ignore the bit about 'only the driver is liable' unless you are in Scotland of course):

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=62531

You are right, they are wrong, hopelessly wrong. You simply need to play email tennis for a while and escalate the complaint. Your first complaint was great and their reply needs shooting down (picking out their stupid use of words like 'a PCN is a penalty charge notice' which shows a shocking lack of knowledge on their part). Also you could quote their assertion about 'checking for BPA complaince' in their email to bod (get the name of the person who wrote it!) and point out that Smart Parking DO NOT normally even follow the POFA2012 and the Notice to Keeper they received wasn't complaint with the Act nor the BPA code and yet they have just paid it. There is never any 'keeper liability' if the NTK isn't worded properly or sent in time (ask for a copy of the NTK and pull it apart, look at the wording, show it to us!).

Also as others have said, if this was a postal PCN (which most of Smart's ones are) how on earth are they suggesting that a driver can have appealed first then?

Finally, I would complain to the BPA because I saw an email the other week saying that in January the BPA & BVRLA signed a 'Memorandum of Understanding' and I believe that PPCs are supposed to make it clear in their PCNs that all that's needed is the name and address of the driver. What did Smart send then, and why did Arval reckon they had to pay it, seeing as Smart Parking DON'T even comply with POFA2012 so there was never any keeper liability? Get a copy of the NTK from Arval (BOTH SIDES) and complain to the BPA that you think they misled Arval about the position, bearing in mind the recent MOU:

http://www.bvrla.co.uk/news/new-agreement-private-parking-notices

Also see this pepipoo thread which has great advice:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=87886

...even though in that case the hire/lease co had 'only' charged an extortionate £35 for handling a letter. Gan's post #8 there is the sort of stance to take - ask Arval what part of the MOU did they not understand?

If Arval take the money then immediately dispute it under the UK scheme called the 'Direct debit guarantee' (if it's a DD) or by raising a disputed payment complaint.

jojojosie

I have the a copy of the pcn and arvals t+cs but cant post them. any idease

bod1467

Scan them (redacting any identifiable info) and upload them to Photobucket or similar. Then post broken links here (without the http bit, just /whatever.is.the/address).

spacey2012

POFA 2013 which covers this makes the registered keeper legally liable where they fail to offer details of the driver.
They have chosen not to mitigate any loss by not using POFA and therefore you would have a very good civil case if they do charge your card as they have failed to adhere to an act of legalisation and in doing so they accept full liability.

I would inform them of this and also inform them they will be liable for any losses you incur by failing to comply with POFA.

bod1467

spacey2012 wrote: »

POFA 2012

A commonly-made mistake.

jojojosie

It says that new users cant post links

bod1467

jojojosie wrote: »

I have the a copy of the pcn and arvals t+cs but cant post them. any idease

bod1467 wrote: »

Scan them (redacting any identifiable info) and upload them to Photobucket or similar. Then post broken links here (without the http bit, just /whatever.is.the/address).

Since you obviously overlooked this reply previously.

jojojosie

What the hell I will just type it

Notice to owner - do not ignore

The Parking Charge Notice (PCN) issued which was fixed to the vehicle (No it wasn't) and detailed above remains outstanding. DVLA have confirmed that you are the registered keeper of this vehicle. Payment methods are detailed on the right and overleaf.

If you do not make the payment in full within the next 14 the total amount outstanding will be passed to a debt recovery agent for collection. This may result in a summons or writ being issued for recovery of outstanding Parking Charge Notice and any further costs incurred.

We believe that the issue of the PCN provides reasonable cause to obtain your details from the DVLA. However if you believe your information has been used inappropriately you may contact the Information Commissioners Office or DVLA directly.

To stop this possibility you should contact us before 23/02/2014. If you were not the driver of the vehicle and you wish to provide the drivers details, lodge a dispute, appeal or query this must be mad online or in writing.

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