*Vent* RSPCA!

powerful_Rogue

BBQ141 wrote: »

However you do not commit an offence if you fail to show a Tesco minion a receipt, they can only ask however a ticket inspector has the right to demand to see your ticket, this is enshrined in law.

But if the Tesco staff member/security guard believes an offence has been committed he can arrest/detain until the police arrive. This includes using reasonable force. S24 Pace.

Which law is this "enshrined" under for bus inspectors?

PS - No need to be petty by calling people of certain occupations "minions"

BBQ141

powerful_Rogue wrote: »

But if the Tesco staff member/security guard believes an offence has been committed he can arrest/detain until the police arrive. This includes using reasonable force. S24 Pace.

Which law is this "enshrined" under for bus inspectors?

PS - No need to be petty by calling people of certain occupations "minions"

Without wanting to go into the finer points of any person powers of arrest, they would need to more than just "believe" an offence has been committed, but that is an aside.

The bus inspectors powers come from The Public Service Vehicles (Conduct of Drivers, Inspectors, Conductors and Passengers) Regulations 1990.

powerful_Rogue

BBQ141 wrote: »

Without wanting to go into the finer points of any person powers of arrest, they would need to more than just "believe" an offence has been committed, but that is an aside.

The bus inspectors powers come from The Public Service Vehicles (Conduct of Drivers, Inspectors, Conductors and Passengers) Regulations 1990.

Thats all very good, but which specific section of the act are you referring to?

As for my example, i'll explain further:

24A Arrest without warrant: other persons(1)A person other than a constable may arrest without a warrant—

(a)anyone who is in the act of committing an indictable offence;
(b)anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be committing an indictable offence.

(2)Where an indictable offence has been committed, a person other than a constable may arrest without a warrant—

(a)anyone who is guilty of the offence;
(b)anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be guilty of it.

(3)But the power of summary arrest conferred by subsection (1) or (2) is exercisable only if—

(a)the person making the arrest has reasonable grounds for believing that for any of the reasons mentioned in subsection (4) it is necessary to arrest the person in question; and
(b)it appears to the person making the arrest that it is not reasonably practicable for a constable to make it instead.

(4)The reasons are to prevent the person in question—

(a)causing physical injury to himself or any other person;
(b)suffering physical injury;
©causing loss of or damage to property; or
(d)making off before a constable can assume responsibility for him.

Reasonable ground in my situation would be:
a) Alarm sounding
b) Refusing to show a receipt for the TV

As such, the Tesco employee/Security guard would have reasonable grounds that an offence has been commited and could detain the person until a Constable arrives.

BBQ141

The conduct of passengers
8. (1) Any passenger on a vehicle who is reasonably suspected by the driver, inspector or conductor of the vehicle of contravening any provision of these Regulations shall give his name and address to the driver, inspector or conductor on demand.
(2) Any passenger on a vehicle who contravenes any provision of these Regulations may be removed from the vehicle by the driver, inspector or conductor of the vehicle or, on the request of the driver, inspector or conductor, by a police constable.

As for your S.24 interpretation we will have to agree to disagree, and I would draw your attention to the "reasonable grounds" clause, and the fact that activation of a shop alarm does not fall under reasonable grounds. Also, there is no legal requirement to show anybody a receipt to leave a shop.

powerful_Rogue

BBQ141 wrote: »

As for your S.24 interpretation we will have to agree to disagree, and I would draw your attention to the "reasonable grounds" clause, and the fact that activation of a shop alarm does not fall under reasonable grounds. Also, there is no legal requirement to show anybody a receipt to leave a shop.

We will indeed have to agree to disagree.

The fact that as you leave the shop the store alarm sounds and you then refuse to show the store any form of receipt for your purchase is indeed reasonable grounds to detain/arrest until a Constable arrives.

BBQ141

powerful_Rogue wrote: »

We will indeed have to agree to disagree.

The fact that as you leave the shop the store alarm sounds and you then refuse to show the store any form of receipt for your purchase is indeed reasonable grounds to detain/arrest until a Constable arrives.

No, that is an arrest on suspicion, and only a police constable can arrest on suspicion.

powerful_Rogue

BBQ141 wrote: »

No, that is an arrest on suspicion, and only a police constable can arrest on suspicion.

No, did you not read my quote of 24 pace above?

24A Arrest without warrant: other persons(1)A person other than a constable may arrest without a warrant—
(a)anyone who is in the act of committing an indictable offence;
(b)anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be committing an indictable offence.

(2)Where an indictable offence has been committed, a person other than a constable may arrest without a warrant—

(a)anyone who is guilty of the offence;
(b)anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be guilty of it.

(3)But the power of summary arrest conferred by subsection (1) or (2) is exercisable only if—

(a)the person making the arrest has reasonable grounds for believing that for any of the reasons mentioned in subsection (4) it is necessary to arrest the person in question; and
(b)it appears to the person making the arrest that it is not reasonably practicable for a constable to make it instead.

(4)The reasons are to prevent the person in question—

(a)causing physical injury to himself or any other person;
(b)suffering physical injury;
©causing loss of or damage to property; or
(d)making off before a constable can assume responsibility for him.

Ive highlighted the relevant sections. As you can see, its not only a Constable that can arrest on suspicion.

LadyL2013

BBQ141 wrote: »

But why should you allow them in, they have no legal right or authority to do so, they have no legal powers to take away an animal. If you do not let them in it is not a sign that your animal may have been mistreated, it is a sign that you do not want a charity worker in fancy dress entering your property.

And if you arouse their suspicions, so what?

Of course you don't have to let them in, in the same way that friends or family don't have any rights to enter your property if you don't want. In our case they knocked and politely explained the situation and asked if we would mind if they met our cat. I, being horrified that someone would think I was neglecting my cat, was more than happy for them to do so and they were satisfied that the complainer was talking crap. They apologised for the inconvenience and went away and phoned later to explain that it was a case of the old lady wanting our cat.

That was my choice to let them in, the same way it is your choice not to. However, had I not let them in and they had investigated further and brought in people with more power then I couldn't have complained about it as my actions would have obviously aroused suspicion. Of course had I let them have a quick inspection in the first place I could have saved myself a lot of bother later. They may not have authority but I figured to save myself the later hassle and seeing as I had nothing to hide I might as well let them do their job and check it out.

Personally, I think they should be given those authorities with the proper training to carry them out so resources aren't wasted on getting police out to check if a goldfish is being negelcted or not.

bod1467

powerful_Rogue wrote: »

The fact that as you leave the shop the store alarm sounds and you then refuse to show the store any form of receipt for your purchase is indeed reasonable grounds to detain/arrest until a Constable arrives.

What if the shop didn't give you a receipt? (Unlikely I know, but there's no legal requirement to provide a consumer with a proof of purchase).

powerful_Rogue

bod1467 wrote: »

What if the shop didn't give you a receipt? (Unlikely I know, but there's no legal requirement to provide a consumer with a proof of purchase).

True, but I cant imagine a shop such as Tescos not issuing a receipt for the purchase of an item such as a TV. Nor could I imagine the customer not requesting some sort of documentation as proof of purchase incase they ever need to make a claim.

However, security guard/employee could just ask the customer to wait for a moment whilst he conformed the purchase.