EE.T-Mob.Orange. Change T&C From 26th March 2014

sshariff

Wallace231 wrote: »

received this yesterday... now what ??

19 March 2014
For information only
Dear Mr *****
Case No: ***** - ***** v T-Mobile (UK) Limited
We acknowledge receipt of an application for adjudication by the customer, a copy of which is attached for the attention of the company.
Please note that any further documents submitted after this date may lead to your application being restarted in order to give the company time to consider them.
In accordance with the rules of the scheme, the company is now required to submit two copies of their response to the claim, which should be returned to us within 10 working days of receipt of this letter, that is, on or before 02/04/2014. The company should list all papers being submitted, and where possible submit their response by email. A copy of any defence to your case received from the company will be sent to you and you will be given the opportunity to make any comments about it which you wish to make.
Please be advised that the company may contact you in order to negotiate a settlement of your claim. If they do that but no agreed settlement is reached they must still submit their defence to your claim by the due date above.
The company may decide to settle your claim in full, ie to give you everything you are claiming in your application. Under these circumstances the company will notify us and we will write to tell you. We will close our file at that time because the adjudicator has no power to award any more than is claimed.
We will contact you again in due course.
Yours sincerely,
cisas

Just wait for EE to respond back with their defence!

BananaPilot

My wife's T-Mobile contract ended a few weeks ago.

When she phoned them today to request a PAC she told them the reason she was leaving was because of the way they are trying to impose a change of terms and conditions on all their customers.

She insisted that they made a note of this on their records, hopefully the message will get passed up the the executive office.

rachx21

Im sorry that's my bad, all the pages wont load on my phone for some reason, but thank you.

hammersfaniow

I received this, this morning, they must be doing a job lot of them:


Case Reference: XXXXXXX

Account Number: XXXXXXXX

Dear Mr XXXX,


As you remain unhappy with the recent change in your terms and conditions I must advise you are able to seek independent advice from CISAS.

Under Ofcom regulations all communication providers must subscribe to an independent adjudication scheme, EE is a member of the Communications and Internet Services Adjudication Scheme (CISAS). If you so wish you may seek advice on this matter from CISAS, contact details for CISAS are:

CISAS
International Dispute Resolution Centre
70 Fleet Street
London
EC4Y 1EU

Email: [EMAIL="info@cisas.org.uk"]info@cisas.org.uk[/EMAIL]

Phone no. 020 7520 3827

Please be advised while EE now considers this case to be closed.






So, it's off to CISAS I go then, can anyone help with how to fill in the online application, is it better to apply via option 1 or 2 and how should the summary be worded ?


Thank you in advance.

glasgowm148

Please respond to executive.office@ee.co.uk


Dear Mr Glasgow,

Thank you for your recent email. Your comments are acknowledged.

EE will not be issuing a Deadlock reference in relation to this matter. Any customer can contact CISAS, without a reference number, at any time for an independent advice. They have a very informative website and their contact details are:

CISAS
International Dispute Resolution Centre
70 Fleet Street
London
EC4Y 1EU

Email: info@cisas.org.uk
Tel: 020 7520 3827
Fax: 020 7520 3829

I trust this clarifies our position in the matter.

Response I just received

Edit: is post 383 my best bet now? They've actually refused to give me a deadlock reference? (which I can't see in anyone else's responses) Should I mention that to CISAS?

g6jns_2

RandomCurve wrote: »

I've been pestering Ofcom since last May and seen my MP twice, and frankly Ofcom don't give a damn about the consumer.
I have a case ready to submit to the parliamentary Ombudsman against Ofcom, but what we really need is the media to publish a story which shows how complicit Ofcom are/have been with the industry. I have ample documentary proof of how Ofcom dismiss anything the consumer says (even when evidence is supplied) and accepted anything EE tell them (without requiring evidence from EE) even when the consumer has proved clear documentary evidence direct from the EE legal team that shows that EE are misleading Ofcom.


Any help/ideas you have of holding Ofcom to account (or getting them to hold EE to account) would be greatly received - do you know any journalists?

First of all I must take my hat off to you for all the work you have done. I just wonder why you are waiting to take Ombudsman route? Just curious.

.One avenue you might like to look at is the unfair Trading regulations .

In particular look at paragraph 2.5

This seems to describe EEs behaviour exactly.

I need to brush up on these rules in detail but it seems to me that the OFT and local trading standards are more likely to take action on individual's cases than OFCOM.

I am preparing a few notes on using the Small Claims Track of the County Court and if anyone is interested I will post them

RandomCurve

g6jns wrote: »

First of all I must take my hat off to you for all the work you have done. I just wonder why you are waiting to take Ombudsman route? Just curious.

.One avenue you might like to look at is the unfair Trading regulations .

In particular look at paragraph 2.5

This seems to describe EEs behaviour exactly.

I need to brush up on these rules in detail but it seems to me that the OFT and local trading standards are more likely to take action on individual's cases than OFCOM.

I am preparing a few notes on using the Small Claims Track of the County Court and if anyone is interested I will post them

I'm waiting before submitting the complaint because I want to include the outcome of a few more cases as follows:

1. I am waiting on the result of a case currently with CISAS re Ofcom allowing T-Mobile to "adjust" the mis-applied price rise of 2013 rather than forcing them to cancel it (which is the only remedy available under the UTCCRs - for which Ofcom are a designated enforcer!)
2. There are some Small Claims Court battles being prepared against O2 which are regarding the principle that in a 2 year fixed term contract it is unfair to have a price rise clause at all - Ofcom have been trying to create an environment to allow price increases.
3. I want to see the results of the cases on this forum as Ofcom were adamant when I first contacted them that there was no Material Detriment - and if people win here I can link that to last years T-Mobile price rise where again Ofcom said TM had done nothing wrong as evidence that Ofcom are incompetent/corrupt/don't follow procedure* (you decide).

* Ofcoms defence to anything you throw at them is that they have followed procedure and if they follow procedure then they have done nothing wrong - it seems they don't care that the procedures must be wrong!!


Regarding the OFT I started by contacting them last year, but they refused to get involved as they say it has to be dealt with by Ofcom!!!

RandomCurve

glasgowm148 wrote: »

Response I just received

Edit: is post 383 my best bet now? They've actually refused to give me a deadlock reference? (which I can't see in anyone else's responses) Should I mention that to CISAS?

Not sure if that is deadlock or not.


I would send #402 (copy in [EMAIL="Lynn.Parker@Ofcom.Org.uk"]Lynn.Parker@Ofcom.Org.uk[/EMAIL] and add at the end "Given the above regulations can you explain on what basis/Ofcom regulation EE are relying on in refusing to issue a deadlock reference"

RandomCurve

Another - no doubt wasted - effort to get Ofcom involved.


If anybody else wants to send a version of the below to Ofcom and the BBC then feel free.




Dear Lynn,


By now you would have been copied into several emails addressed to "EE" regarding their refusal to issue deadlock references, so I hope Ofcom are beginning to see how EE operates in the real World. I am pleased to say that by copying you in EE are finally beginning to issues Deadlock Letters, however as the LARGEST CP in the UK EE should have been complying with Ofcom regulations from the outset (you would have seen from the responses originally received from EE that this is a policy not to issue CISAS references as even after initially copying you in they refused to issue them).


Now that, as a concerned consumer, I have demonstrated (provided evidence) to Ofcom of what is actually happening - and therefore Ofcom will be unable to pass this of as an isolated incident or individual case - can you please respond to my email of 12th March below.


I look for to receiving Ofcom's response shortly.


Regards


RC

---

Original Message

---

Date: 12 March 2014 at 23:21
Subject: RE: Re: full price refunds?


Dear Lynn,


Thank you for your email of 12-03-14, and I note that Ofcom do not wish to engage further on this matter, however for your information you should be aware that the EE and T-Mobile post 30 October contract clause were as follows:


7.2.3.3. The change that We gave You Written Notice of in point 7.1.4 is: (i) an increase in Your Price Plan Charge (as a percentage) higher than any increase in the retail price index (also calculated as a percentage) or any other statistical measure of inflation published by any government body authorised to publish measures of inflation from time to time, and published on a date as close as reasonably possible before the date on which We send You Written Notice;


And the Orange post 30th October clause reads:
4.3.1 we give you written notice to increase the Charges (as a percentage) by an amount equal to or less than the percentage increase in the All Items Index of Retail Prices or any other statistical measure of inflation published by any government body
authorised to publish measures of inflation from time to time, and published on a date
as close as reasonably possible before the date on which we send you written notice;

Whereas the new clause for EE and T-Mobile are as follows:
7.2.3.3. We have given You Written Notice of an increase in a Price Plan Charge under point 7.1.4 and (i) the increase in Your Price Plan Charge (as a percentage) is higher than the annual percentage increase in the Retail Price Index (RPI) published by the Office for National Statistics (calculated using the most recently published RPI figure before we give you Written Notice under 7.1.4);


And For Orange:
4.3.1 the increase in the Charges (as a percentage) is equal to or lower than the annual percentage increase in the Retail Price Index (RPI) published by the Office for National Statistics (calculated using the most recently published RPI figure before we give you Written Notice under 4.3).


So as you can plainly see previously they had to use the lowest inflation statistic published (CPI), but are now trying to give themselves a right to exclusively use RPI (which is always HIGHER than CPI). Therefore under GC 9.6 EE should have written to customers explaining their (potential) right to a penalty free cancellation.


Recent CPI v RPI rates:


Aug 2013 CPI 2.7%; RPI 3.3%
Sep 2013 CPI 2.7%; RPI 3.2%
Oct 2013 CPI 2.2%; RPI 2.6%
Nov 2013 CPI 2.1%; RPI 2.6%
Dec 2013 CPI 2.0%; RPI 2.7%
Jan 2019 CPI 1.9%; RPI 2.8%


A - How do Ofcom police compliance with the GCs if you do not review the actions of CPs?


B - And what enforcement measure will you take to ensure that EE complies retrospectively with GC9.6 on this matter? i.e force EE to write to consumers informing them of their right to a penalty free cancellation if the customers thinks the change is likely to be of Material Detriment? – Which is what the Ofcom rules (GC 9.6) require them to do!


C - Additionally you never responded to my question on what sanctions Ofcom will impose on EE for not issuing Deadlock references (which it is still refusing to do even after customers have specifically stated that they have sought advice from Ofcom (I phoned your customer advisors) and that EE are REQUIRED to issue deadlock references).


Finally for information I do not have a contract with EE, but am representing a large group of consumers who are rightly outraged at EEs total disregard for the rules in that:


1 - They have not complied with GC 9.6 and informed customers of their (potential) cancellation rights


The Communications Provider shall:
(a) give its Subscribers adequate notice not shorter than one month of any modifications likely to be of material detriment to that Subscriber;
(b) allow its Subscribers to withdraw from their contract without penalty upon such notice; and
(c) at the same time as giving the notice in condition 9.6 (a) above, shall inform the Subscriber of its ability to terminate the contract without penalty if the proposed modification is not acceptable to the Subscriber.


2 - They have taken it upon themselves to determine if the change is likely to of material detriment in contravention of the UTCCRs


Schedule 2, paragraph 1, states that terms may be unfair if they have the object or effect of:
(m) giving the seller or supplier the right to determine whether the goods or services supplied are in conformity with the contract, or giving him the exclusive right to interpret any term of the contract.


AND


3 - Have refused to issue CISAS deadlock references – again in breach of Ofcom regulations.


I would appreciate Ofcoms thoughts on this as your earlier response suggests that Ofcom was not in possession of the facts and I think (based on the above) Ofcom would want to be taking action against a CP that has so clearly flouted (and continues to do so) the regulations to the customer’s detriment.





Regards


RC

g6jns_2

RandomCurve wrote: »

I'm waiting before submitting the complaint because I want to include the outcome of a few more cases as follows:

1. I am waiting on the result of a case currently with CISAS re Ofcom allowing T-Mobile to "adjust" the mis-applied price rise of 2013 rather than forcing them to cancel it (which is the only remedy available under the UTCCRs - for which Ofcom are a designated enforcer!)
2. There are some Small Claims Court battles being prepared against O2 which are regarding the principle that in a 2 year fixed term contract it is unfair to have a price rise clause at all - Ofcom have been trying to create an environment to allow price increases.
3. I want to see the results of the cases on this forum as Ofcom were adamant when I first contacted them that there was no Material Detriment - and if people win here I can link that to last years T-Mobile price rise where again Ofcom said TM had done nothing wrong as evidence that Ofcom are incompetent/corrupt/don't follow procedure* (you decide).

* Ofcoms defence to anything you throw at them is that they have followed procedure and if they follow procedure then they have done nothing wrong - it seems they don't care that the procedures must be wrong!!


Regarding the OFT I started by contacting them last year, but they refused to get involved as they say it has to be dealt with by Ofcom!!!

Noted. A two year fixed term contract is just that. For OFCOM to suggest otherwise is absurd. I really don't see that argument standing up in court.

As for the OFT's response I would reply spherical objects! The OFT's remit is to ensure that consumer protection law is applied. They cannot abdicate responsibility simply because there is a regulator for a particular industry. My inclination would be to take the Ombudsman route with them as well.

Keep up the good work!