EE.T-Mob.Orange. Change T&C From 26th March 2014

sshariff

Ed13P wrote: »

Who is your contract with? I am with EE and the clause you quote is not the same as for my contract. Mine says you can cancel if they raise the price higher than the RPI or any other statistical measure of inflation. So the change they want to make is worse for me as it will limit it to RPI.

Orange! I was under the impression that it stated "you can cancel if", however it mentions "this option (i.e. cancellation) does not apply if" which puts a whole new perspective to the meaning of clause 4.3.1.

Just a slight change of this sentence between the two contracts creates a whole new meaning. I believe the only argument we have will be ambiguity. Let's just see how our case progresses.

Mr_Uddin

Got an email from CISAS, EE have until the 20th to respond. Fingers crossed.

RandomCurve

ed_209 wrote: »

Interesting - even with Ofcom cc'd in they are point blank refusing to issue me with a deadlock letter. They are now going back to square one and saying that its not a change per se in terms and conditions, merely restating... I've gone back quoting RPI, UTCCR and how they do not have the right to define material detriment.

But interesting that they refuse to issue a letter

Reply to EE (keeping their response on the email) and say that for the 2nd time you are requesting a Deadlock reference as they are refusing to communicate further, and as per Ofcom rules they have to provide you with a reference. - and CC [EMAIL="Lynn.Parker@ofcom.org.uk"]Lynn.Parker@ofcom.org.uk[/EMAIL] again.

RandomCurve

50Twuncle wrote: »

Is this DEADLOCK ?

from Executive Office
"I feel there is no further benefit to be gained by either party from continued correspondence. As a result of this I feel the matter is now closed and we will not reply to further correspondence from you in relation to this matter. "

Good question - sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't!!!


Submit a CISAS claim on the strength of that email and see what happens. If they reject the claim because it is not at deadlock then go back to EE requesting a deadlock reference etc as per post #402

RandomCurve

Below is the T-Mobile Post 30th October CLause




7.2.3. A Cancellation Charge won’t apply if You are within the Minimum Term and:


7.2.3.1. Our entitlement to operate the Network ends at any time; or 7.2.3.2. You are a Consumer and the change that We gave You Written Notice of in point 2.11.2 or


7.1.4 above is of material detriment to You and You give Us notice to immediately cancel this Agreement before the change takes effect; or


7.2.3.3. The change that We gave You Written Notice of in point 7.1.4 is: (i) an increase in Your Price Plan Charge (as a percentage) higher than any increase in the retail price index (also calculated as a percentage) or any other statistical measure of inflation published by any government body authorised to publish measures of inflation from time to time, and published on a date as close as reasonably possible before the date on which We send You Written Notice; and


Can we agree that this clause is not ambiguous and the logic of the original arguments holds?

RandomCurve

sshariff wrote: »

My bad! You are correct - I didn't read the clause properly!!! I guess our arguments may not be correct after all as it actually gives EE the right to increase the prices by the highest price index published by any government body!

I believe the argument that we need to use is the RPI losing its value as a national statistic!

I think the fact that we are even having this conversation means there must be some ambiguity here! I interpret the Orange clause as follows:


"However this (the right to cancel) does not apply if:

4.3.1 we give you written notice to increase the Charges (as a percentage) by an amount equal to or less than the percentage increase in the All Items Index of Retail Prices or any other statistical measure of inflation published by any government body authorised to publish measures of inflation from time to time, and published on a date as close as reasonably possible before the date on which we send you written notice;"


However this (the right to cancel) does not apply if
by an amount equal to or less than the percentage increase in the All Items Index of Retail Prices
So if the penalty free cancellation does not apply if the price rise is equal to or less than RPI then it does apply if price increase is higher then RPI.


or any other statistical measure of inflation published by any government body
Again if the penalty free cancellation does not apply if the price increase is equal to or lower than "any other statistical measure of inflation" then it does apply if the price increase is higher than any other statistical measure of inflation.


So say:
RPI 3%
CPI 2%
Price rise 3%


Logic:
Is the price rise equal to or lower than RPI - Yes so NO cancellation, or
Is the price rise equal to or lower than CPI - NO so Cancellation?


Other ways of looking at it is are:

1. If a new statistic called RPIX was HIGHER than RPI could EE use RPIX under this clause?
2. If the RPI and/or ONS ceased to exist/change name does it give EE the right to use the new statistic published by a different body?

To my mind if the answer to either of those question is YES (and I think the answer is yes in both instances) then the logic has to be that EE have to use the lowest statistic not the highest.

RandomCurve

Lifes_Grand_Plan wrote: »

In addition to above, I have just readied my Appendix one to send to CISAS and am a little concerned with the content......


To me, that clause doesn;t say they MUST use the lowest measure, it simply says they can use any statistical measure (of their choice) and that the increase must be lower than than measure.....
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The fact that it gives EE an option to chose will also make it non compliant with the UTCCRs


12.4 A degree of flexibility in pricing may be achieved fairly in the following ways.30
• Where the level and timing of any price increases are specified (within narrow limits if not precisely)....


The option to "choose" would fall foul of the "narrow limits if not precisely) rule.


It is good to have these debates as it helps to prepare us if EE come back with any of these points in their defence.

k3caz

Just a quick question have sent 2 emails #44, and yet to receive a reply first was 15 Feb, second was 6th March, any idea on what to do next since they have not bothered to reply? Read receipt for both from Executive office

50Twuncle

k3caz wrote: »

Just a quick question have sent 2 emails #44, and yet to receive a reply first was 15 Feb, second was 6th March, any idea on what to do next since they have not bothered to reply? Read receipt for both from Executive office

I don't know how read receipts stand in law - but ignorance is also no defence !!
It proves that "someone" in EO has read your email - I would send it again, copied to [EMAIL="olaf.swantee@orange.co.uk"]olaf.swantee@orange.co.uk[/EMAIL], [EMAIL="francoise.clemes@ee.co.uk"]francoise.clemes@ee.co.uk[/EMAIL], [EMAIL="gerry.mcquade@ee.co.uk"]gerry.mcquade@ee.co.uk[/EMAIL], [EMAIL="fotis.karonis@ee.co.uk"]fotis.karonis@ee.co.uk[/EMAIL], [EMAIL="pippa.dunn@ee.co.uk"]pippa.dunn@ee.co.uk[/EMAIL] and [EMAIL="stephen.harris@ee.co.uk"]stephen.harris@ee.co.uk[/EMAIL]
Also [EMAIL="Lynn.Parker@ofcom.org.uk"]Lynn.Parker@ofcom.org.uk[/EMAIL]
With the subject as "assumed received for legal purposes" or similar
or wait for RandomCurve - he is the expert on this matter !!

RandomCurve

k3caz wrote: »

Just a quick question have sent 2 emails #44, and yet to receive a reply first was 15 Feb, second was 6th March, any idea on what to do next since they have not bothered to reply? Read receipt for both from Executive office

Go with 50Twuncle.


Copying in Lynn at Ofcom will help. I am in dialogue with her (although she has also gone a bit quiet lately - possibly working behind the scenes with EE to see how EE can escape this!!) so the more people who email her, the more I can pressure her to get Ofcom to intervene.


I've already tried to block EE from pressuring CISAS not take cases (after CISAS had already accepted cases) like they did in the price rise fiasco of 2013, by contacting Ofcom to get their view on the role of CISAS - a pre-emptive strike!!!!!