EE.T-Mob.Orange. Change T&C From 26th March 2014

FreddieM

Just a thought RC. I believe it may be helpful/beneficial if all templates were on the same post, with a brief explanation as to when you use each template. There's a lot to trawl through and it is easy for some to confuse one template from another thus losing them the case.... Just an observation from my own experience ;-)

Nodding_Donkey

The trouble is that when it comes to things like replying to EE's evidence you need to actually edit the templates to match up with your circumstances. If people read through the thread they will have a bit of understanding of what is going on rather than just a cut'n'paste willy nilly which is what will happen if all the stuff is in one post.

RandomCurve

Okay the below is an additional item to go with the response at post #1161




Para 33.5 & 33.6


EEs defence at these paragraphs falls down on a number of different points:


Point 1:


As in the regulatory context the Ofcom definition of Material Detriment is “any change that is neither of Benefit nor Neutral to the consumer” (i.e Material Detriment = Detriment), then EEs defence here where they clearly explain the ACTUAL negative impact on me has to (under Ofcoms GC 9.6 own definition) be of Material Detriment to me (it is neither to my benefit nor neutral).





Point 2:


EEs own definition of Material Detriment within the old contract was that a change in the “…All Items Index of Retail Prices or any other statistical measure of inflation published by any government body authorised to publish measures of inflation” would be of Material Detriment


Now EE are trying to argue that an increase higher than CPI (but lower than RPI) is not of Material detriment, how can EE change their own definition of Material detriment? This clearly demonstrates that EE does believe an increase above CPI (which is the Official (and only National) statistic for UK inflation) is of Material detriment, otherwise they would not have had that clause in the original contract..





Point 3


EE Have provided a comparison of RPI v CPI over the period March 2012 and February 2014 and claim that the average difference is 0.5, however that is not the same as a difference of 0.5% but a difference of 0.5 of a percentage point which = an average of 18.9% higher. However the only relevant statistic is the February 2014 statistic as this is the month that EE use to reference price rises. As can be seen the difference here is 1.0 percentage point or 58.8% higher. Using EEs example of a £30 contract that means the increase moves from £30*1.7% = 51p to £30*2.7% = 81p – an additional increase of 30p per month (58.8%) higher than would have been allowed under the old contract term and 100% higher than the example that EE have quoted – clearly showing the potential for the change in T&Cs to LIKELY to be of Material Detriment.


The longer term prospect of both indices as provided for by the Office of Budget responsibility in their publication “Working Paper No2 - The Long-run difference between RPI and CPI inflation published in November 2011 by Ruth Miller (http://cdn.budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/Working-paper-No2-The-long-run-difference-between-RPI-and-CPI-inflation.pdf)


where it is generally considered that the difference between the two indices is likely to increase. This must be something that EE economists and price setters would be aware of and it begs the question why the legal team are not up to date on this other than to try and mislead the adjudicator.





Ruth Miller





Office for Budget Responsibility





Abstract




Between 1989 and 2011 Retail Prices Index (RPI) inflation tended to be around 0.7 percentage points higher than Consumer Prices Index (CPI) inflation on average. Recent developments suggest that the long-run difference between these measures may be significantly higher in the future. This paper decomposes the differences in RPI and CPI inflation and looks at the prospects for the evolution of the wedge between the two measures over the long term. Possible methodological developments to the CPI and RPI could have a substantial impact on the difference between RPI and CPI inflation, and constitute one of the main uncertainties surrounding the long-term difference between the two measures.


1.5 For a number of years a widely held view was that the long-run difference between RPIX and CPI inflation rates was around ¾ percentage points.2 Indeed, since around 1989, RPI and RPIX inflation have tended to be around 0.7 percentage points higher than CPI inflation, on average.


1.6 However more recent developments suggest that the long-run difference is likely to be significantly wider in the future. The March 2011 Economic and fiscal outlook (EFO) stated that the long-run difference is expected to be around 1.2 percentage points between RPI and CPI inflation. This was based on the assumption that recent rises in the ‘formula effect’, one of the components of the wedge between the RPI and CPI, will begin to stabilise and the larger contribution from the formula effect in 2010 will persist.


So according to the Independent Office of Budget Responsibility the Material Detriment to me of using RPI rather than CPI is likely to INCREASE over time (current difference is 1% point or 58.8%).





Point 4:


EE have also failed to consider that (using their example) had they applied RPI under the old contract I would not have suffered a detriment of 30px12 (£3.60p) as I would have escaped my contract penalty free and would have saved 12x30.60p (£363.60p) (assuming an average of ½ way through my contract). So the actual detriment is (I can assure you) Material to me.





Point 5:


If as EE claim that the difference between CPI and RPI is not Material then why have EE decided to change the contract to allow the higher RPI inflation index to be used (which is not designated as National statistic due to flawed calculation methodology) rather than CPI – which is the UK national statistic for inflation? This must clearly demonstrate that EE considers the difference to be material.

RandomCurve

FreddieM wrote: »

Just a thought RC. I believe it may be helpful/beneficial if all templates were on the same post, with a brief explanation as to when you use each template. There's a lot to trawl through and it is easy for some to confuse one template from another thus losing them the case.... Just an observation from my own experience ;-)

Working on something - watch this space!!!

Wullie32

Sent two emails now, Orange/EE are just completely ignoring mine!

Going to give the price rise thread a shot.

FreddieM

I have emailed them both templates 1 & 2, but they wrote back in a letter... How strange. Victoria Hunt seem to be a very busy lady ;-)

shandymanuk

Hi,

Signed up to reply, been following thread for a while.

I sent the T&C rejection template from earlier in the thread back in early March, just after I received the letter, to which they replied at the end of March stating that it was not a price increase, just notification of change to the terms. On 12th April, i get the letter stating about price increase, so i forwarded the reply they sent me with a fresh message saying that i rejected the T&C changes, now that i have been notified of a price increase, i wish to exercise my right to terminate my contract with no fee. I've not heard anything since.

Any suggestions? Is it worth phoning customer services to see if i can get a penalty free termination or send another email?

RandomCurve

Wullie32 wrote: »

Sent two emails now, Orange/EE are just completely ignoring mine!

Going to give the price rise thread a shot.

Don't do this!!!


EE are still on the ropes on this one, we have yet to see how the price rise arguments are perceived by CISAS. My advice is to keep sending the T&C email to EE (copy in [EMAIL="Lynn.Parker@Ofcom.org.uk"]Lynn.Parker@Ofcom.org.uk[/EMAIL])
And star each one "You have ignored my last 2 emails please respond to this third email - my original email is reproduced below."


2 days latter resend (copying in Lynn again)


starting
You hav eignored my last 3 emails please respond to this fourth email - my original email is reproduced below."


And keep going every two days.


In addition send an email regarding the price rise changes as follows


"This is to advise that I reject your price increase on the grounds that is of Material Detriment to me under GC 93.6 and I request an immediate penalty free cancellation"


Then forget the price rise forum (whatever the response (except a penalty free PAC!!!)) and just go back to that forum IF you lose at CISAS on T&Cs.


No

RandomCurve

shandymanuk wrote: »

Hi,

Signed up to reply, been following thread for a while.

I sent the T&C rejection template from earlier in the thread back in early March, just after I received the letter, to which they replied at the end of March stating that it was not a price increase, just notification of change to the terms. On 12th April, i get the letter stating about price increase, so i forwarded the reply they sent me with a fresh message saying that i rejected the T&C changes, now that i have been notified of a price increase, i wish to exercise my right to terminate my contract with no fee. I've not heard anything since.

Any suggestions? Is it worth phoning customer services to see if i can get a penalty free termination or send another email?

You can try customers services, but after the call I suggest following the advice above (#1452).

shandymanuk

RandomCurve wrote: »

You can try customers services, but after the call I suggest following the advice above (#1452).

Thanks, will give that a go, then if no joy, the email route.