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Parking charge notice - dundas middlesbrough - permit zone bay
JBBORO
Posts: 10 Forumite
Hello,
I have spent a good few hours reading posts on this forum but I am unable to find an exact post to the circumstances of a PCN I have been issued.
The driver borrowed my car and went shopping in Middlesbrough. The driver parked in the underground car park which is a pay and display car park. It was X December and obviously busy with it being Christmas. The driver drove around waiting for a space and one became available. There was a parking attendant stood within 10 meters of the driver who was speaking to another driver. The driver parked in the bay and walked to the pay and display machine and purchased a ticket. The driver returned to my car and put the ticket in the window with the parking attendant still stood watching.
The driver went shopping and returned within the period the driver had paid for. (The pay and display ticket was purchased at XX and expired at XX.XX it has my registration number on the ticket and its own serial number and the machine where it was purchased from).
On the drivers return there was a PARKING CHARGE NOTICE on the drivers window. The driver opened it up and could not understand why the driver had been issued it.
The PCN shows that a pay and display ticket was purchased and expires at XX.XX. Time seen XX.XX. Time issued XX.XX It has a "Y" in the filmed box and no. of W/signs 1. The contravention code is 81 - Parked in a restricted area of a car park.
The parking attendant was still in the car park so the driver went to speak to her and informed her that the driver did not know why the driver had been issued the ticket. The driver could see there were another SEVEN vehicles with tickets issued which were parked in the bays alongside where the driver had parked. The driver spoke to a lady who was also speaking to the attendant.
The attendant pointed to a red and white sign on one of the large pillars supporting the underground car park and stated it was a PERMIT ZONE.The driver did not see this sign and informed the parking attendant that it was not clear and the driver had no idea they were in a PERMIT ZONE.
The parking attendant was a young female and the driver said her reply to the driver saying it wasn't very clear was a nervous giggle and said "I KNOW". she then informed the driver that she would have to appeal within 28 days.
I been to the car park and have taken photos. There is a HUGE "DUNDAS SHOPPING £3.00 PER DAY MONDAY TO FRIDAY BEFORE 9.30AM" and a large standard BLUE SQUARE with WHITE 'P' next to it with a arrow pointing LEFT towards the entrance to the underground car park. As you turn left the road declines steeply and there are NO SIGNS on entrance other than a HEIGHT RESTRICTION.
Once you are under the entrance there is a weighted sign stood on the road saying "LONG STAY £3.00 PER DAY BEFORE 9AM THROUGH ARCHWAY" and small SANDWICH BOARD stating the closing time. The car park is a one way system and you MUST TURN left. Throughout the car park it is supported by large pillars and there are SEVERAL "HAVE YOU PAID AND DISPLAYED" signs and "PAY MACHINE" with an arrow pointing towards the pay machine, signs.
As you drive around the car park there are about 200 spaces including an overflow. I drove to where the driver was parked and had a look for signs. With the car park being empty on this visit and with the intention of looking for signs it was apparent that this particular corner of the car park was for permit holders.
The signs are RED, BLACK and WHITE and state PRIVATE PROPERTY" but it would be difficult to read these signs whilst driving as the text is to small.
The alleged "PERMIT ZONE" appears to consist of about 15 spaces in an 'L' shape. There were THREE of these coloured signs at one end of the 'L' and the driver did not see them and would not have been able to stop in the middle of the road to read them or get out to read the small print. The driver parked at the other end of the 'L' as this is where the space was.
The driver walked to the Pay and display machine and there were no signs on the drivers way to the machine as there was no need to walked back past where the THREE signs were at the other end of the 'L'.
On further inspection there is a small 6inch square plaque at the front of the parking bay. It is a YELLOW sign with BLUE writing on a GREEN door next to a very similar ELECTRICAL WARNING sign. The small sign states "PERMIT HOLDERS ONLY MONDAY TO FRIDAY".
On driving through the car park my thoughts are
1) On entry there is nothing to say that the car park has multi purpose i.e. PAY AND DISPLAY AND PERMIT HOLDERS. It would appear that it is just a normal public car park
2) The 'L' shape "PERMIT ZONE" does display three signs with in close proximity of each other but it would be impossible to read the contents whilst driving and with a queue of traffic behind you. However if you were to get out of your vehicle and walked up to the them to read it would be clear it is a "PERMIT ZONE".
3) The small sign at the front of the bay is VERY confusing. It is too small and it has the appearance of something similar to an ELECTIRICAL SAFTEY SIGN and the GREEN doors it is placed on appears to be some sort of POWER station or EMERGENCY EXIT.
Other points to consider are
1) Why didn't the parking attendant say anything to the driver? Do they not have a duty to try and minimize 'LOSS' to their company?
2) In theory there are FOUR warning signs but the small one is very unclear and the other THREE are not clear from driving past them - THE PARKING ATTENDANT herself has only stated No. of W/signs on the PCN as ONE.
3) The driver has purchased a PAY AND DISPLAY TICKET and returned in the time allowed. This is a genuine mistake caused by what we believe is POOR SIGNAGE.
4) There were SEVEN other cars which had been caught short of this
5) The parking attendant appeared to agree that the signs are not clear but this may have been down to her being nervous.
The RED, BLACK and WHITE signs stated
"PRIVATE PROPERTY. TERMS AND CONDITIONS APPLY. EXCEL PERMIT HOLDERS ONLY MON - FRI ONLY. BY PARKING ON THIS PRIVATE LAND YOU FULLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE TO CONTRACTUAL TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF VEHICLE CONTROL SERVICES LTD. VCS SET OUT ON THIS SIGN. IF YOU BREACH THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS YOU AGREE TO PAY THE PARKING CHARGE STATED BELOW. CHARGES APPLY 24 HOURS A DAY. PARKING CHARGE £100.
It then goes on to say it will be reduced to £60 if paid within 14 days.
The PAY AND DISPLAY MACHINE has large TERMS AND CONDITIONS next to it with the times allowed and parking prices. EXCEL set out the terms at the MACHINE but VCS set out the terms on these THREE additional PERMIT ZONE signs.
From what I can gather is it appears that EXCEL and VEHICLE CONTROL SERVICES LTD are the same company but EXCEL run the PAY AND DISPLAY and VEHICLE CONTROL SERVICES issue to PCN.
Is this ticket Worthing appealing? I am aware it is not a FINE but I am unsure about the "PARKING CHARGE" in the alleged "PERMIT ZONE".
I have taken lots of photographs, could you please inform me on the conditions of what signs must be displayed on entrance, if you believe the above points are enough to challenge this successfully. This was a genuine mistake and this is obvious by the fact a ticket was purchased by the driver. I have the ticket if it would be required.
I have read that they can only claim for 'LOSSES' which could be difficult to prove. What 'LOSSES' could they claim for parking in a PERMIT ONLY ZONE? and does it make a difference if their signs state PARKING CHARGE if you breach the conditions.
I believe the car park is underneath an arcade of shops but not specifically for those shops so I would be unable to speak to the manager of the shopping centre. I cant find any information on who the owner of the car park is.
Does the driver appeal as the driver or do I wait for them to contact me as the registered keeper? Do Excel or VEHICLE CONTROL SERVICES chase up unpaid tickets with the DVLA they are BPA approved so I know they can.
Can I still appeal as the REGISTERED KEEPER with the information the driver has given me i.e. WHAT THE ATTENDANT SAID or would this have to be used by the DRIVER.
If there is a way to upload photographs I could do this.
Thanks in advance
I have spent a good few hours reading posts on this forum but I am unable to find an exact post to the circumstances of a PCN I have been issued.
The driver borrowed my car and went shopping in Middlesbrough. The driver parked in the underground car park which is a pay and display car park. It was X December and obviously busy with it being Christmas. The driver drove around waiting for a space and one became available. There was a parking attendant stood within 10 meters of the driver who was speaking to another driver. The driver parked in the bay and walked to the pay and display machine and purchased a ticket. The driver returned to my car and put the ticket in the window with the parking attendant still stood watching.
The driver went shopping and returned within the period the driver had paid for. (The pay and display ticket was purchased at XX and expired at XX.XX it has my registration number on the ticket and its own serial number and the machine where it was purchased from).
On the drivers return there was a PARKING CHARGE NOTICE on the drivers window. The driver opened it up and could not understand why the driver had been issued it.
The PCN shows that a pay and display ticket was purchased and expires at XX.XX. Time seen XX.XX. Time issued XX.XX It has a "Y" in the filmed box and no. of W/signs 1. The contravention code is 81 - Parked in a restricted area of a car park.
The parking attendant was still in the car park so the driver went to speak to her and informed her that the driver did not know why the driver had been issued the ticket. The driver could see there were another SEVEN vehicles with tickets issued which were parked in the bays alongside where the driver had parked. The driver spoke to a lady who was also speaking to the attendant.
The attendant pointed to a red and white sign on one of the large pillars supporting the underground car park and stated it was a PERMIT ZONE.The driver did not see this sign and informed the parking attendant that it was not clear and the driver had no idea they were in a PERMIT ZONE.
The parking attendant was a young female and the driver said her reply to the driver saying it wasn't very clear was a nervous giggle and said "I KNOW". she then informed the driver that she would have to appeal within 28 days.
I been to the car park and have taken photos. There is a HUGE "DUNDAS SHOPPING £3.00 PER DAY MONDAY TO FRIDAY BEFORE 9.30AM" and a large standard BLUE SQUARE with WHITE 'P' next to it with a arrow pointing LEFT towards the entrance to the underground car park. As you turn left the road declines steeply and there are NO SIGNS on entrance other than a HEIGHT RESTRICTION.
Once you are under the entrance there is a weighted sign stood on the road saying "LONG STAY £3.00 PER DAY BEFORE 9AM THROUGH ARCHWAY" and small SANDWICH BOARD stating the closing time. The car park is a one way system and you MUST TURN left. Throughout the car park it is supported by large pillars and there are SEVERAL "HAVE YOU PAID AND DISPLAYED" signs and "PAY MACHINE" with an arrow pointing towards the pay machine, signs.
As you drive around the car park there are about 200 spaces including an overflow. I drove to where the driver was parked and had a look for signs. With the car park being empty on this visit and with the intention of looking for signs it was apparent that this particular corner of the car park was for permit holders.
The signs are RED, BLACK and WHITE and state PRIVATE PROPERTY" but it would be difficult to read these signs whilst driving as the text is to small.
The alleged "PERMIT ZONE" appears to consist of about 15 spaces in an 'L' shape. There were THREE of these coloured signs at one end of the 'L' and the driver did not see them and would not have been able to stop in the middle of the road to read them or get out to read the small print. The driver parked at the other end of the 'L' as this is where the space was.
The driver walked to the Pay and display machine and there were no signs on the drivers way to the machine as there was no need to walked back past where the THREE signs were at the other end of the 'L'.
On further inspection there is a small 6inch square plaque at the front of the parking bay. It is a YELLOW sign with BLUE writing on a GREEN door next to a very similar ELECTRICAL WARNING sign. The small sign states "PERMIT HOLDERS ONLY MONDAY TO FRIDAY".
On driving through the car park my thoughts are
1) On entry there is nothing to say that the car park has multi purpose i.e. PAY AND DISPLAY AND PERMIT HOLDERS. It would appear that it is just a normal public car park
2) The 'L' shape "PERMIT ZONE" does display three signs with in close proximity of each other but it would be impossible to read the contents whilst driving and with a queue of traffic behind you. However if you were to get out of your vehicle and walked up to the them to read it would be clear it is a "PERMIT ZONE".
3) The small sign at the front of the bay is VERY confusing. It is too small and it has the appearance of something similar to an ELECTIRICAL SAFTEY SIGN and the GREEN doors it is placed on appears to be some sort of POWER station or EMERGENCY EXIT.
Other points to consider are
1) Why didn't the parking attendant say anything to the driver? Do they not have a duty to try and minimize 'LOSS' to their company?
2) In theory there are FOUR warning signs but the small one is very unclear and the other THREE are not clear from driving past them - THE PARKING ATTENDANT herself has only stated No. of W/signs on the PCN as ONE.
3) The driver has purchased a PAY AND DISPLAY TICKET and returned in the time allowed. This is a genuine mistake caused by what we believe is POOR SIGNAGE.
4) There were SEVEN other cars which had been caught short of this
5) The parking attendant appeared to agree that the signs are not clear but this may have been down to her being nervous.
The RED, BLACK and WHITE signs stated
"PRIVATE PROPERTY. TERMS AND CONDITIONS APPLY. EXCEL PERMIT HOLDERS ONLY MON - FRI ONLY. BY PARKING ON THIS PRIVATE LAND YOU FULLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE TO CONTRACTUAL TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF VEHICLE CONTROL SERVICES LTD. VCS SET OUT ON THIS SIGN. IF YOU BREACH THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS YOU AGREE TO PAY THE PARKING CHARGE STATED BELOW. CHARGES APPLY 24 HOURS A DAY. PARKING CHARGE £100.
It then goes on to say it will be reduced to £60 if paid within 14 days.
The PAY AND DISPLAY MACHINE has large TERMS AND CONDITIONS next to it with the times allowed and parking prices. EXCEL set out the terms at the MACHINE but VCS set out the terms on these THREE additional PERMIT ZONE signs.
From what I can gather is it appears that EXCEL and VEHICLE CONTROL SERVICES LTD are the same company but EXCEL run the PAY AND DISPLAY and VEHICLE CONTROL SERVICES issue to PCN.
Is this ticket Worthing appealing? I am aware it is not a FINE but I am unsure about the "PARKING CHARGE" in the alleged "PERMIT ZONE".
I have taken lots of photographs, could you please inform me on the conditions of what signs must be displayed on entrance, if you believe the above points are enough to challenge this successfully. This was a genuine mistake and this is obvious by the fact a ticket was purchased by the driver. I have the ticket if it would be required.
I have read that they can only claim for 'LOSSES' which could be difficult to prove. What 'LOSSES' could they claim for parking in a PERMIT ONLY ZONE? and does it make a difference if their signs state PARKING CHARGE if you breach the conditions.
I believe the car park is underneath an arcade of shops but not specifically for those shops so I would be unable to speak to the manager of the shopping centre. I cant find any information on who the owner of the car park is.
Does the driver appeal as the driver or do I wait for them to contact me as the registered keeper? Do Excel or VEHICLE CONTROL SERVICES chase up unpaid tickets with the DVLA they are BPA approved so I know they can.
Can I still appeal as the REGISTERED KEEPER with the information the driver has given me i.e. WHAT THE ATTENDANT SAID or would this have to be used by the DRIVER.
If there is a way to upload photographs I could do this.
Thanks in advance
0
Comments
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that is a long post and unfortunately , as is usual , you have concentrated far too much on what happened, instead of why they do these things
here are the reasons for their silly stance in these cases
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4835943
basically they wish to bleed you dry and gain as much profit as possible, do not think for one moment they play fair on this, as none of them do, the parking attendant is not there to make sure you park properly, they enforce the rules, even if your partner did not see them or read them
and here is all the info you could possibly need about it, if you had read the sticky threads
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4816822
for pictures, add a http type link to photobucket or similar photo sharing sites
as per the NEWBIES thread, you wait for the NTK in 29 to 56 days
ps:- a quick google search found this with some info on managing agents
http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/local-news/cost-parking-dundas-shopping-centre-36838300 -
We don't need to know what happened and nor will POPLA. The only useful thing I spotted in your long post was:
''EXCEL set out the terms at the MACHINE but VCS set out the terms on these THREE additional PERMIT ZONE signs. ''
That's interesting because they are NOT the same company (they come from the same 'stable' and are both owned by fat-cat Simon Renshaw-Smith. Google him and the word 'horse' or 'pony' because that's what he does with victims' money!). But a mixed lot of signs from two different firms is misleading.
However, you will win at appeal on OTHER grounds, if you follow the info in the NEWBIES thread, about how to appeal, then how to win at POPLA. I posted that thread at the top for newbies to win a case without even needing to post.
It's not about what happened, you really don't need to ask 'is it worth appealing?!' Please read the sticky threads at the top you should have already read, and then ask if you have any questions on how you will be wording your appeals. Two stages and you've beaten it.
Or an assertive complaint to the Retail Store Mangers or Retail Park Managment of course (but that's covered in another sticky thread at the top!).PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
The Walk Through guide says to complain to the manager.
A WALK THROUGH THE PROCESS
2. If the parking incident was at a retail park/shop go back to the store the Parking Charge Notice relates to and see THE manager, complain about a genuine customer being harassed and ask that they cancel the ticket. Show him/her any receipts for the day in question. If they are unable to do this ask for the name and address of the MD/CEO, as you will now write to them (and DO it!).
3. If it was a general car parking facility you need to find out who the landowner is (Google search) and send off a letter of complaint to them.
4. If you have receipts for the day (or bank/credit card statements) proving purchases, send (redacted) copies of them to the PPC with covering letter stating you were a customer on the day, and shopping at their principal's establishment was the only cause of any overstay.
If I am able to find the manager or land owner I would have to disclose my personal details to him for them to try and cancel the PCN if they agreed to it? Would these not be passed on to the PPC?
I do have receipts but do I send these to the PPC? This again would give them my details?0 -
You don't have to name the driver though...think about it. The 'Successful Complaints about PPCs' thread near the top of the forum tells you how to complain and I already mentioned that sticky thread above. You certainly don't send your original receipts. Just copies. How would they know who was driving from receipts, then?! Passengers can have receipts too!
And as for the PPC you are waiting for your Notice to Keeper now.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
I have some pictures uploaded to dropbox but I am unable to post links as I am a new user, any suggestions?0
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from dropbox.com
/s/q9dkqdq7gy7pzrt/image10.jpeg0 -
You don't have to show us, honestly, you won't be winning at POPLA on signage. And I don't even think you have the NTK in the post yet so the keeper should not be talking about the windscreen ticket that 'only the DRIVER has seen'.
So we don't need pics of the windscreen ticket.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
agreed, no point in helping the PPC beat you or making their job easier !!
photocopies or scans of any receipts etc are fine, keep the originals for your own use as is your right
as mentioned, passengers do shopping as well as drivers , as happened with my wife last year , a passenger with a driver, but caused the driver to overstay, charge cancelled by PE on soft appeal
wait for the NTK to arrive, if it does not arrive then you have a better case, or no case at all, plus it costs them money for the reg keeper details too
when the NTK arrives, you deal with it as RK for now , stronger case and makes the PPC work harder
then if they refuse your soft appeal, you popla it with a very strongly worded legal appeal, with help from here , then you win , no money is paid out and it costs them for being stroppy and obstructive or obtuse !!0 -
Ok thanks. The alleged 'fine' for breaching the terms and conditions is £100 (reduced to £60) is for the area my partner parked in (managed by VCS ltd). I just need to confirm that there is no way they can justify this charge with it being a PERMIT ONLY zone. are there any additional costs incurred with the running etc of this type of bay, if it is for employees only as apposed to parking in the pay and display area (managed by excel).0
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its a permit only zone, so they are justified in stopping you parking there
but a genuine estimate of "loss" is more like £12 not £100, so no that is not "justified"
so you will win at popla on the not a GPEOL , or possibly even a no legal contract , or they may not even file a defence, you just dont know until it happens
suggest you stop focussing on what happened , start focussing on beating it at soft appeal or popla
I already gave to details of the paper that listed the manging agents for it , that may help you in any appeal to the landowner0
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