Parking charge notice - dundas middlesbrough - permit zone bay

JBBORO

Coupon-mad wrote: »

You don't have to show us, honestly, you won't be winning at POPLA on signage. And I don't even think you have the NTK in the post yet so the keeper should not be talking about the windscreen ticket that 'only the DRIVER has seen'.

So we don't need pics of the windscreen ticket.

Just in relation to the not winning a POPLA on signage. There is NO signage on entrance. I have read appendix B from BPA and it states there must be signage. Would this not be a good case?

Coupon-mad

Nope because you don't win at POPLA on a breach of the BPA Code of Practice.

This from Richard Reeve (POPLA Service Manager) in an email to something I raised:


''Assessors consider each appeal by making findings of fact on the basis of the evidence produced by the parties, consideration of the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice and application of relevant law. However, a breach of the Code would not of itself amount to a ground of appeal and Assessors cannot consider mitigating circumstances. The former may be a matter for the BPA and the latter is a matter for the individual operator. ''

Redx

they breach the CoP on a daily basis, on the not a GPEOL alone, never mind no contracts or poor signage etc

JBBORO

Hello,
I am awaiting NtK and have prepared a soft appeal draft in preparation. It is a condensed version of what I am drafting from the popla appeal but have a question about the soft appeal if you could please help


The driver purchased a Pay & Display ticket but parked in a permit only bay due to bad signage. The PCN has the details of the Pay & Display ticket on. Do I mention a pay & display ticket was purchased and use it as an appeal on the soft appeal? or would that imply that the driver was aware that there were terms and conditions to park in the car park. There were no signs on entrance so no terms and conditions noted but driver was aware to purchase a pay & display ticket. (for info excel manage the pay & display area and vcs manage the permit zones for 'excel employees only' so different set of terms apply.




Dear,

In relation to your Parking Charge Notice, reference XXXXXX dated XXXXXX, I am the registered keeper and I deny all liability for this charge for the following reasons:

• The driver was a customer of several shops at XXXXX.
• A valid parking ticket was purchased from the Pay & Display machine.
• No signage at entrance and unclear signs inside the car park.
• This is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss.
• No authority or contract to issue the Parking Charge Notice.
  
  
  1) The driver was a customer of several shops at XXXXX.
  
  I enclose copies of receipts and bank statement showing that purchases were made at these shops.
  
  2) A valid parking ticket was purchased from the Pay & Display machine.
  
  I enclose a copy which clearly shows my vehicle registration number, XXXXXXX, for the times the ‘Parking Charge Notice’ was issued.
  
  3) No signage at entrance and unclear signs inside the car park.
  
  There is no signage at the entrance to the car park and those signs that are present inside the car park are unclear. This is not compliant with the BPA Code of Practice. I have visited the XXXXX car park since the issue of this parking charge to view the signage and there is NO signage at the entrance to the car park.
  
  I enclose photographs of the entrance to the car park.
  
  4) This is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss.
  
  The amount of the charge, £100.00, is disproportionate to the loss incurred by XXXXXXXXXXXXX and is punitive, contravening the Unfair Terms Act 1997.
  
  5) No authority or contract to issue the Parking Charge Notice.
  
  XXXXXXX do not own this car park and are acting merely as agents for the owner. XXXXXXX have not provided the any evidence that it is lawfully entitled to demand money from the driver, since they do not own nor have any interest or assignment of the title of the land in question.
  
  I understand that the managing agents for this car park is XXXXXXXX, however any contract must be between XXXXXXXXXX and the land owner and not with their managing agent unless expressly stated in any such contract.
  
  I require that you immediately cancel this Parking Charge Notice. If you reject this appeal, please forward a POPLA verification code and I will appeal to them independently.
  
  Yours Faithfully
  XXXXXXXX
  Registered Keeper of XXXXXXXX

link to photograph of sign if needed - /s/rbzze1krkcv105g/image7.jpeg but add the dropbox . com before

Coupon-mad

That will do nicely; send it (when you get the NTK of course)!


You could say in the signage part, that 'the driver did purchase a P&D ticket seeing as an Excel sign was the only one seen on driving in and before parking, and beside those bays there was a very adjacent P&D machine. So there was no loss to your esteemed leader, Simon Renshaw-Smith, as he owns both companies and it is sharp practice to have two different parking regimes with what appears to be two different companies on site. The apparent 'VCS area' is lacking in signs - reminiscent of the famous VCS v Ibbotson case - and there was no defined site boundary map on the Excel sign. Nice work VCS/Excel, how to make a car park site into a cash cow by making it utterly confusing for visitors! The only possible contract to allege might have been with Excel, not VCS - and the driver did pay and display so there was no breach with either company. Copy of ticket attached.'

Redx

as above, a pity more people dont sort out all the legwork and do the research and then come up with an excellent appeal like that !!

There is no doubt in my mind that you will win this seeing as you have clearly demonstrated the ability to fight fire with fire, do the research, and nail them to the floor having found the correct way to do so

good luck

JBBORO

I have just received a reply from the managing agents in relation to this. They run the car park and the let the shops out within the centre. I asked for the owner details and explained that the driver received a PCN even though a ticket was bought, spent a lot of money and returned within the timescale.


their reply is they manage the car park on behalf of the landlord and have a number of permit holder bays and the signage should clearly state this. they have asked for the pcn number and date and they will take it up with the company that provide the parking enforcement on their behalf.


how should I reply? should I go into details of the PPC breaching BOP signage. I don't want to give the PPC a head up of my appeal or chance to put extra signs up. the managing agents may or may not be bothered about how much money was spent or how often the driver visits the shops.


should I provide a copy of the ticket?

Umkomaas

JBBORO wrote: »

I have just received a reply from the managing agents in relation to this. They run the car park and the let the shops out within the centre. I asked for the owner details and explained that the driver received a PCN even though a ticket was bought, spent a lot of money and returned within the timescale.


their reply is they manage the car park on behalf of the landlord and have a number of permit holder bays and the signage should clearly state this. they have asked for the pcn number and date and they will take it up with the company that provide the parking enforcement on their behalf.


how should I reply? should I go into details of the PPC breaching BOP signage. I don't want to give the PPC a head up of my appeal or chance to put extra signs up. the managing agents may or may not be bothered about how much money was spent or how often the driver visits the shops.


should I provide a copy of the ticket?

Give them what they ask for - PCN number and date. If you want to copy them in on the ticket, not a problem - but make sure it's a copy, not the original.

There's nothing in any appeal that's going to give any PPC a 'heads up', unless you've found a brand new, unique winning point. The PPC will have seen them all before and they know which ones defeat them at POPLA. What amazes me is that they plough on regardless to POPLA when it's so plain to see they're going to lose. Lemmings and cliffs.........

And they're not going to rush out to get new signs and send a chimp out in a van with a ladder and spanner just to block off your appeal point.

JBBORO

this is my proposed letter of complaint. can someone give it a once over to see if I will be telling them too much or any changes.




XXXXXX,
Thank you for getting back to me in relation to my request for the name of landowner. I am furious at this penalty charge notice being issued and would prefer to complain direct to the landlord however if you are in a position to assist further with this promptly and appropriately I would really appreciate your help. Alternatively could please provide me with the landowners contact details and I will complain to them direct.

Can I please point out that I do not wish for my personal details or the contents of this letter passing onto anyone and should not be forwarded to the parking company. The parking charge notice reference number is XXXXXX. It was issued on XXXX at XXXXX hours to my vehicle, XXXXXX.

I provided brief details through the XXXXXXX website in relation to my vehicle being issued a parking charge notice, but will provide further details in this letter of complaint.

The driver borrowed my car and went shopping in XXXXXX. The driver parked in the XXXXXX underground car park which is a pay and display car park. It was XXX December and obviously busy with it being Christmas. The driver drove around waiting for a space and one became available. There was a parking attendant stood within 10 meters of the driver who was speaking to another driver. The driver parked in the bay and walked to the pay and display machine and purchased a ticket. The driver returned to my car and put the pay & display ticket in the window with the parking attendant still stood watching. The driver went shopping and returned within the period the driver had paid for.

The pay and display ticket was purchased at XXXX and expired at XXXXX it has my registration number, XXXXXX, on the ticket and its own serial number and the machine where it was purchased from.

On the drivers return there was a Parking Charge Notice on the driver’s window. The driver opened it up and could not understand why it had been issued it. The parking attendant was still in the car park so the driver went to speak to her and informed her that they did not know why the parking charge notice had been issued. The driver could see there were another SEVEN vehicles with tickets issued which were parked in the bays alongside where the driver had parked.

The consecutive reference numbers, either immediately before or after, on the parking charge notice will confirm that another seven vehicles were issued the same. The driver of my own vehicle was not the only one to not see this unclear signs.

The attendant pointed to a red and white sign on one of the large pillars supporting the underground car park and stated it was a PERMIT ZONE. The driver did not see this sign and informed the parking attendant that it was not clear and the driver had no idea they were in a PERMIT ZONE.

The parking attendant was a young female and the driver pointed out that the sign wasn't clear. The parking attendant said "I KNOW". She then informed the driver that the driver would have to appeal within 28 days.

This is a disgusting way to treat your customers. The driver spent on this occasion and regularly spends a lot of money on shopping using the XXXXX centre and underground car park and it has always been a favourite.

There are many other shops and car parks available around XXXXXX, some of which are offering two hours free which will be used instead in the future if this issue isn’t resolved satisfactorily.

I have been to the car park and have taken several photographs. There is a HUGE "XXXXXX SHOPPING £3.00 PER DAY MONDAY TO FRIDAY BEFORE 9.30AM" and a large standard BLUE SQUARE with WHITE 'P' next to it with a arrow pointing LEFT towards the entrance to the underground car park. This clearly suggests it’s a Pay & Display car park. As you turn left the road declines steeply and there are NO SIGNS on entrance other than a HEIGHT RESTRICTION.

Once you are under the entrance there is a weighted sign stood on the road saying "LONG STAY £3.00 PER DAY BEFORE 9AM THROUGH ARCHWAY" and small SANDWICH BOARD stating the closing time. The car park is a one way system and you MUST turn left. Throughout the car park it is supported by large pillars and there are SEVERAL "HAVE YOU PAID AND DISPLAYED" signs and "PAY MACHINE" with an arrow pointing towards the pay machine, signs.

There is no clear boundary showing where the pay & display car park finishes and where the permit zone begins. The only signs displayed are not clear whilst driving and the text is too small. Furthermore, the alleged "PERMIT ZONE" appears to consist of about 15 spaces in an 'L' shape. The driver parked at the other end of the 'L' where the sign is displayed. The driver walked to the Pay and display machine and there were no signs on the drivers route to the machine as there was no need to walked back past where the unclear sign is located.

The points I would like to raise are as follows

1) Why didn't the parking attendant say anything to the driver? Do they not have a duty to look after your customers and make sure the car park is run correctly?
2) The parking attendant, who will be there often, agrees the sign was not clear therefore what chance does a customer have or seeing and understanding any signage?
3) On entry to the car park there is nothing to say that the car park has multi purpose i.e. PAY AND DISPLAY AND PERMIT HOLDERS. It would appear that it is just a normal public car park and it would be natural to presume this is the case.
4) The 'L' shape "PERMIT ZONE" does not display clear signs and it would be impossible to read the contents whilst driving and with a queue of traffic behind you.
5) The driver has purchased a PAY AND DISPLAY TICKET and returned in the time allowed. This shows that the driver’s intentions were honest.
6) There were SEVEN other cars which had been caught short of this
7) XXXXXXXXXXX are the company who have issued the parking charge notice and they are a member of the British Parking Association and therefore they should abide by the Codes of Practise and follow the strict guidance on signage.

The British Parking Association Codes of Practise Appendix B covers MANDATORY ENTRANCE SIGNS which your parking company are breaching. Please find attached link for your information. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Please note this is only one breach of the Codes of Practise I am bringing to your attention.

There are many more points I can and will raise if necessary. However I hope that you can see why I am so disgusted and are considering taking my custom elsewhere.

The XXXXXX website shows that you are a member of XXXXX Town Centre Partnership and you represent the interests of shopping centre and property owners in the town centre. This will surely include keeping honest, paying customers happy and hoping they will return to use the services.

I trust that you agree that the points I have raised are unacceptable and terrible customer service and will do your best to resolve this matter.

Please find attached a copy of the Pay & Display ticket purchased and displayed.

Regards

Coupon-mad

Looks fine to me, a genuine complaint written by you from the heart and not giving away who was driving or anything. Great stuff!

Just one typo spotted - 'Practise' should be 'Practice'