I'm sick.. No better off working :(

BJV

osdset wrote: »

Thanks for that, you still haven't proved a thing. Anecdotal stories that anyone could make up. I'll say it again, provide proof to back up your assertions.

I have absolutely no reason to make it up? Really could not be bothered to try and make it up. Can I just ask why you would think that someone would bother? What would be the point?

You opinions are based on your life experience's and your opinions and beliefs just as mine are.

I really do not think that it would be productive to name and shame the person. Also even though I have a fantastic memory, as the lady did not buy a car I only took basic details should as name and address which where duly passed to Motability and then under data protection rules and regulations destroyed after a certain time frame.

Even if I still had access to the data I would not post personal details about a third party on a public forum.

paulwellerfan

i think that should be a touch of the VIPERS..

MissMoneypenny

FBaby wrote: »

The difference is working tax credits, however, a large element of this will go towards childcare costs. So those working will 1/pay back in taxes, and 2/promote employment unlike those unemployed. How can the two be compared????

Tax Credits are still benefits. In fact, they are income based benefits, for those that can't look after their famillies without money form the welfare state. The less you have coming into your house, the more the welfare state will give you. That's how income based benefits work.

The Tax Credits benefit cost the welfare state a lot more than income based Job seekers, because they are a very generous welfare payment and many people like to stay on them long term. A single parent could take take a second job to boost their household income, to reduce or get off benefits; a second parent could get job that fits in with the other parents working hours to reduce or stop claiming benefits, but many prefer to claim benefits instead as it is so easy to claim Tax Credits (just once a year to renew their claim). Hence why the Tax Credit bill is high; there is no incentive for many to move off benefits.

On the other hand, income based job seekers get very little money and the incentive is there to get off welfare. If the IB JSA claimant can access another benefit such as Tax Credits, then again, the incentive to get off benefits is reduced for many.

Tax Credits and IB JSA are both income based welfare payments, so for Tax Credits claimants (or those that have ever claimed Tax Credits) to demonise JSA claimants, is farcical.

FBaby wrote: »

My understanding is that families with children on benefits are entitled to child tax credits, to the same level if not more than people working on low income.

Then your understanding is wrong as not all families with children are entitled to claim Tax Credits as Tax Credits are a welfare payment. The only reason you were allowed to claim Tax Credits as soon as you came to the UK with your children, is because you are an EU citizen and EU law says the UK must give EU citizens full access to all the UK's welfare payments.

If you were a citizen of a country outside of the EU who came to the UK to live, then you would not have been allowed to claim Public Funds (UK benefits) and therefore would not have been allowed to claim Tax Credits. Non-EU citizens are not allowed UK Public Funds (UK benefits) until they have resided in the UK for 5 years. They can access welfare payments that are based on their conributions to the UK; but; of course; Tax Credits is not on that list as they are an income based welfare payment.

The UK clearly lists their benefits and Tax Credits is on that list; because they are an income based benefit.

If you have a residence permit that allows you to live in the United Kingdom, it may include the condition that you have no recourse to public funds. If so, it means you will not be able to claim most benefits, tax credits or housing assistance that are paid by the state.


Public funds include a range of benefits that are given to people on a low income, as well as housing support. These are:

• income-based jobseeker's allowance;
• income support;
• child tax credit;
• universal credit;
• working tax credit;
• a social fund payment;
• child benefit;
• housing benefit;
• council tax benefit;
• council tax reduction;
• domestic rate relief (Northern Ireland);
• state pension credit;
• attendance allowance;
• severe disablement allowance;
• personal independence payment;
• carer's allowance;
• disability living allowance;
• an allocation of local authority housing; and
• local authority homelessness assistance.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas-immigration/while-in-uk/rightsandresponsibilities/publicfunds/

BJV

paulwellerfan wrote: »

i think that should be a touch of the VIPERS..

Thanks could not for the life of me understand vapours??? lol

FBaby

I have no idea why you are bringing up people claiming coming from out of the county, surely they don't represent the majority. Also no idea why you are bringing my circumstances into either and wrongly too as it's been in this country for 3 years before I had a child and didn't claim for another 4 years. This covered childcare costs for 3 years and then was only entitled for £45 a month before I rightly lost all entitlements.

I don't think you understand my point though. I agree with you when you say about tax credits EXCEPT when adults are working full time. Those people rarely claim much tax credits BUT to cover childcare costs.

I still can't believe that a couple both working full time cost more in full benefits than a couple not working at all.

Poppie68

FBaby wrote: »

I have no idea why you are bringing up people claiming coming from out of the county, surely they don't represent the majority. Also no idea why you are bringing my circumstances into either and wrongly too as it's been in this country for 3 years before I had a child and didn't claim for another 4 years. This covered childcare costs for 3 years and then was only entitled for £45 a month before I rightly lost all entitlements.

I don't think you understand my point though. I agree with you queasy you say about tax credits EXCEPT when adults are working full time. Those people rarely claim much tax credits BUT to cover childcare costs.

I still can't believe thwart a couple both working full time cost more in York benefits than a couple not working at all.

Where you in a rush by any chance FBaby?:D

dodger1

osdset wrote: »

No need to look for a hidden agenda, phrases like
and Are self evident. The forum has plenty of Hyacinth Bucket clones, I just like to point them out

Exactly those examples were self evident and not hidden in any way.

FBaby

Poppie68 wrote: »

Where you in a rush by any chance FBaby?:D

haha, very limited lunch hour!! Now edited

MissMoneypenny

FBaby wrote: »

I have no idea why you are bringing up people claiming coming from out of the county,

I thought I made that clear in my post? To show you that Tax Credits are a welfare payment too and that not every low income family can claim benefits. From your earlier post in this thread, you seemed to think that only people who don't work get benefits and just ignored the fact that Tax Credits are a benefit too.

FBaby wrote: »

Well you only feel how so many working people feel about benefit claimants.

As I have explained (twice on this thread) Tax Credits is the UK's 3rd most expensive welfare payment and costs the welfare state much more than the jobseekers benefit. Tax Credits and IB JSA, are income based welfare payments.

As I said in my prevous post, it is farcical for those who claim (or have claimed) Tax Credits to demonise those claimants of jobseekers or to moan about those claiming a sick benefits, as Tax Credit claimants are on benefits too.

FBaby wrote: »

surely they don't represent the majority.

Unless someone is willing to so a data request to see how many migrants are claiming, we won't know. Perhaps one has already been done? I assume it can be done as the government released the figures of migrants who said they came to the UK to work, but now claim sick benefits. And wasn't more released recently on the number of migrants claiming jobseekers? Those would need to be googled.

FBaby wrote: »

This covered childcare costs for 3 years and then was only entitled for £45 a month before I rightly lost all entitlements.

I remember you saying that your new partner was a high earner and that this stopped your benefits. I also remember you saying that you didn't think it was right that a partners income should be taken into account when claiming benefits, if that new partner wasn't the father of the children.

FBaby wrote: »

I don't think you understand my point though. I agree with you queasy you say about tax credits EXCEPT when adults are working full time. Those people rarely claim much tax credits BUT to cover childcare costs.

Childcare costs paid in part, by Tax Credits, is still the parent claiming benefits. Tax Credits are income based benefits. Not every low income/high number of children, families can claim their childcare fees, as Tax Credits is an income based welfare payment (Public Funds) and not every person in the UK is allowed to claim Public Funds.

I don't suppose you were in the UK pre Tax Credits or perhaps didn't have your children pre Tax Credits? This 'asking welfare to pay for childcare costs' only came in with the newly created benefit, Tax Credits. Prior to that, we made financial plans before we had children and funded out own nursery care and childcare costs. Usually, the parents managed their working hours around each other, so that one parent always cared for their own children. Now they don't have to as the low income families can ask the welfare state will pay most of their childcare or one parent can stay at home and ask the welfare state for more Tax Credits.

Although I must admit that the last government somehow to managed to push childcare fees right up! I assume that is because the welfare state is now asked to pay lots of parents fees. We use to do "swapsies": one parent looked after the children for free, as they knew that other parent would return that favour at some point.

FBaby wrote: »

I still can't believe thwart a couple both working full time cost more in York benefits than a couple not working at all.

That depends on their wage and how many children they had. If neither are high wage earners and they have lots of children, then they will need the state to help finance their family. I suppose there are also cases where the welfare state gives them more than the lowest net wage of one parent.

Don't forget too that there are couples who work, have children and who don't claim any benefits. Although it does seem to be the low earners who have the bigger families.

FBaby

you seemed to think that only people who don't work get benefits and just ignored the fact that Tax Credits are a benefit too.

I'm not ignoring anything... you keep going on about the fact that tax credits are benefits. Fine, we know that, but for the purpose of this thread, we are separating benefits from tax credits because the issue is not about how much one can claim, but how much one receives without putting anything back in.

I remember you saying that your new partner was a high earner and that this stopped your benefits. I also remember you saying that you didn't think it was right that a partners income should be taken into account when claiming benefits, if that new partner wasn't the father of the children.

Before you recall personal things, try to be accurate. Indeed, my tax credits stopped when I moved in with my partner, that is when it was right that it should stop as I stated above (although when the threshold went down, it would have stopped anyway). I also indeed say that I didn't think it was right that a partner's income should be taken into consideration when referring to CHILD benefit NOT tax credits.

Prior to that, we made financial plans before we had children and funded out own nursery care and childcare costs

Before that, childcare was much more affordable, as was property. Before that, parents were much more likely to get family helping them with childcare.

Ironically, I do agree with you on the whole, I just don't agree when both parents work full-time, which I agree is probably the minority, but that doesn't take away that they exist and have the right to a better lifestyle that those not working, or working as few hours as possible.