Providence St, Wakefield Car Park Charge

seanavfc92

spacey2012 wrote: »

Search the car again, under seats that kind of thing.
Saving parking receipts is very important in a scammers car park.
They are famous for these fishing expeditions as well.

The first thing I did

zzzLazyDaisy

Just a final question - was the P&D machine one of those where you have to input the car reg?

The reason I ask is that the PCN states

The alleged contravention was detected and recorded by the ANPR cameras at the site on 27/09/2013 and the reason for the contravention is: Parked without displaying a valid ticket/permit.

I cannot for the life of me work out how ANPR cameras clocking vehicles in and out of the car park could possibly detect that a parked car within the car park is failing to display a valid ticket?

seanavfc92

zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »

Just a final question - was the P&D machine one of those where you have to input the car reg?

The reason I ask is that the PCN states

The alleged contravention was detected and recorded by the ANPR cameras at the site on 27/09/2013 and the reason for the contravention is: Parked without displaying a valid ticket/permit.

I cannot for the life of me work out how ANPR cameras clocking vehicles in and out of the car park could possibly detect that a parked car within the car park is failing to display a valid ticket?

Funnily enough that's what I said!

But yes, you have to enter your vehicle reg.

Further to your comment, and just to clarify, there are only two cameras in the car park. I parked to the side and behind the pole that the cameras are on.

spacey2012

This scam needs bringing to the attention of MP's.
They have banned clamping and allowed something much worse.

zzzLazyDaisy

seanavfc92 wrote: »

But yes, you have to enter your vehicle reg.

BINGO!

I suspect user error. Is there any chance that the driver could have inputted the registration number wrongly? Or accidentally inputted the reg of their OWN car when they were actually in someone else's car that day (it does happen).

What happens is that the APNR results are tallied with the P&D machine. Any vehicle logged entering and leaving with no corresponding car reg on the machine is recorded as not having purchased a ticket. They don't check for almost matches, or user error - either your car reg is on the machine perfectly entered, or it is not there at all.

But this works also in your favour as you can ask them to check their records (and produce them if necessary) which should prove you paid. But you do need to speak to the person who fed the machine (if that was not you) to make sure they didn't enter a completely different number by mistake, which would then need to be provided to them for them to check.

Come back when you have had chance to discuss/think and let me know what you think might have happened.

Daisy

Umkomaas

zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »

Just a final question - was the P&D machine one of those where you have to input the car reg?

The reason I ask is that the PCN states

The alleged contravention was detected and recorded by the ANPR cameras at the site on 27/09/2013 and the reason for the contravention is: Parked without displaying a valid ticket/permit.

I cannot for the life of me work out how ANPR cameras clocking vehicles in and out of the car park could possibly detect that a parked car within the car park is failing to display a valid ticket?

I think this is a very important point for appeal purposes. Ask for evidence as to how an ANPR camera can detect that the vehicle was 'parked without displaying a valid ticket/permit'. Also ask for photographic proof.

seanavfc92

zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »

BINGO!

I suspect user error. Is there any chance that the driver could have inputted the registration number wrongly? Or accidentally inputted the reg of their OWN car when they were actually in someone else's car that day (it does happen).

What happens is that the APNR results are tallied with the P&D machine. Any vehicle logged entering and leaving with no corresponding car reg on the machine is recorded as not having purchased a ticket. They don't check for almost matches, or user error - either your car reg is on the machine perfectly entered, or it is not there at all.

But this works also in your favour as you can ask them to check their records (and produce them if necessary) which should prove you paid. But you do need to speak to the person who fed the machine (if that was not you) to make sure they didn't enter a completely different number by mistake, which would then need to be provided to them for them to check.

Come back when you have had chance to discuss/think and let me know what you think might have happened.

Daisy

The driver typed in the registration for the car being driven. The only possibility is an error on one of the letters. I did some reading and found the following (courtesy of coupon-mad, I believe):

- Excel's cameras take pictures of moving traffic, without showing any evidence of parking at all. Nor has any evidence having been provided that Excel comply with the 'ANPR section' {(look it up on the BPA website and quote it)} of the BPA Code of Practice in terms of checking and maintaining their cameras & camera clocks at that car park.

- Specifically, Excel must evidence to POPLA what checks were made in terms of maintaining & checking the cameras and timings at that particular car park in the days before the incident. And also evidence of any manual checks made that day when it must have been apparent that every car in a certain period would have received a fake PCN. Excel's spokesperson is on record in a Watchdog article* as stating that ''we do recognise that motorists may input an incorrect digit of their VR number when purchasing a P&D ticket and as such our processing allows for a manual review/quality check of PCN’s before they are issued''. So POPLA must be shown a copy of Excel's record of their 'manual review' check that day and Excel must explain why this did not cause the immediate cancellation all tickets before issue that day, when it would have been clear from even a cursory check that the machines were not working during a particular period of time.

Umkomaas wrote: »

I think this is a very important point for appeal purposes. Ask for evidence as to how an ANPR camera can detect that the vehicle was 'parked without displaying a valid ticket/permit'. Also ask for photographic proof.

The only photographic proof they have is of me entering and leaving, which I don't dispute.

---

I know I'm probably going off on a whim here, but are Excel Parking a member of the Accredited Trade Association? Was reading the AOS website and it said the following:

Alongside the launch of the AOS in 2007, DVLA announced that any company/organisation accessing Vehicle Keeper data via an electronic request process that is not a Local Authority or Government Organisation must be a member of an Accredited Trade Association (ATA).

The BPA welcomed this change but called for further restriction, as it did not refer to postal applications from operators. In 2009, DVLA published a consultation to close the loophole and from 23 November 2009, all operators that request information accessing vehicle keeper data, whether electronically or by post, must either be a member of an ATA or be regulated by government or legislation.

Like I said, I may be clutching at straws but I just wanted to know, because I can't see it on their website.

seanavfc92

So, after having found a page on their website for accreditations, I've checked and they do not list ATA.

Correct me if I'm wrong (which I may well be), but how do they obtain details of the RK to send the PCN to? If the quote above is anything to go by, they haven't done it correctly?

Guys_Dad

Following Daisy's post, before you ramp things up, appeal to them saying that driver purchased a ticket and may have entered Reg No incorrectly. Can they check their records to see if there might have been a transposition and if so, could they cancel the ticket.

If not, then please send me a POPLA code for appeal to adjudicator as clearly the charge is a penalty and not a genuine pre estimate of loss.

The last bit may make them think again about wasting time and £27.

Just keep it simple and polite at this stage.

seanavfc92

Guys_Dad wrote: »

Following Daisy's post, before you ramp things up, appeal to them saying that driver purchased a ticket and may have entered Reg No incorrectly. Can they check their records to see if there might have been a transposition and if so, could they cancel the ticket.

If not, then please send me a POPLA code for appeal to adjudicator as clearly the charge is a penalty and not a genuine pre estimate of loss.

The last bit may make them think again about wasting time and £27.

Just keep it simple and polite at this stage.

PCN number and nothing else other than that?