Plenty of money for houses....but not for nurses

J_i_m

Loughton_Monkey wrote: »

.... I would much prefer a nurse of 4 or 5 years standing than one who came out of nursing school yesterday!

Indeed, whilst in some ways I can appreciate that sentiment I would also hasten to point out that all experience levels start at zero and everyone has to begin from somewhere. Besides, it's not unlikely that inexperienced nurses carry out such tasks of high risk and responsibility under supervision of a more experienced colleague until they have passed a probationary appraisal structure.

Experience is a valuable thing to have, but I do think that sometimes the increment ladder distorts the notion of "experience" and assigns a financial value that isn't always appropriate.

For example, at my workplace I have the same responsibility as all other people on the same pay band as me, none of those have an authority over me, none are in a supervisory position over me and we all have the same job description etc.

I have on many ocassions taken on more work than them and done extra work in addition to my role and job description and yet got paid less than an equal ranking colleague who did the bare minimum simply because they happened to be a point or two further along in the pay band.

To my mind that isn't particularly fair and in those instances I was providing better value for money yet recieving less reward.

My point is that of-course experience is essential, yes it should be appreciated and valued and yet I do not believe that it directly corresponds to either ability or responsibility.

In many ways the NHS pay system would be better without the increment system as it unfairly penalises some staff whilst unduly favouring others. But I also think that they should think very carefully in how they should go about removing it, because the propaganda machine has painted it as this over generous annual pay rise when it is actually nothing of the sort.

I appreciate that the NHS does need to save money, yet squeezing the back bone staff in ever harsher ways is simply creating an unjustified scapegoat. They really ought to be directing the saving at the frivolous spending part of the NHS, for example the needless expenditure on branding, selling different trusts to each other, needlessly relocating services and it'd make far more sense if the money made from extoriante car parking tariffs actually went back into the NHS instead of private hands.

lostinrates

J_i_m wrote: »

For example, at my workplace I have the same responsibility as all other people on the same pay band as me, none of those have an authority over me, none are in a supervisory position over me and we all have the same job description etc.

I have on many ocassions taken on more work than them and done extra work in addition to my role and job description and yet got paid less than an equal ranking colleague who did the bare minimum simply because they happened to be a point or two further along in the pay band.

To my mind that isn't particularly fair and in those instances I was providing better value for money yet recieving less reward.

.

This sounds utterly normal to me tbh.

In the private sector when you reach the top of your sort of area in your job you look for another job if their is no upward progression and you don't want to coast.

What you are describing about work loads is normal. My husbands holiday was cancelled last week because a colleague was already on holiday and his colleague's work load had issues so DH had to step into the breach. DH aphas taken one holiday as planned in his time of employment. One likes or lumps it. Dh's nor his colleagues pay scale will be impacted by this sort of thing....its just...their job and the way the cookie crumbled. What DH gets out of it? Experience, satisfaction he saw something through well, client satisfaction....keeping his job.

I'm afraid I really am missing the point about this job 'reduced rate of salary'. By this do you really mean starting on a lower pay than you consider market value then moving up?

lostinrates

Backbiter wrote: »

In response to both the above:

You've both just stated that experienced nurses should be paid more than inexperienced ones because their experience matters.

Here's a novel idea: let's devise a pay system whereby nurses and teachers get paid more as they acquire valuable experience.

It might look something like the system the Government want to abolish.

Experience certainly does matter. Up to a certain point. Once on the job experience is acquired it stops being acquired at the same rate after a while.

In more than one profession people start on a vastly reduced rate, which then increases, then increases at a much lower rate or not at all.

I'd really like to understand this from your perspective though.

brit1234

I'm sick of all this public sector pay bashing, its a government tactic to turn everyone against each and privatise everything.

In my job the police the longer you work the more skills, experiences you get and you become far more efficient. There is a huge amount to learn and you are constantly learning. As this happens your responsibilities dramatically rise. The yearly pay increases were meant to represent this. They have been stopped, we have had a below inflation 1% rise last year and this year a pay cut with my promised pension destroyed. Promotion has been frozen 5 years, my promotion exam qualification which I spent 6 months studying for and paying hundreds on study material is set to run out after 5 years in March.

We are working constant anti social hours and weekends. we now don't have a social life, my friends don't get to see there families. We deal with the scum of the universe, constantly putting ourselves in harms way to keep the public safe. On Friday I attend my friends funeral who died in the line of duty.

I know it is the same for my colleagues in the fire service, ambulance service and hospitals. I have never had anything against cuts and understand the need for them but when the government keeps launching schemes to price myself out of ever owning a home or being able to afford to start a family despite working my butt off then I have an issue.

I use to work in the private sector with a graduate scheme on better pay and pension. Monday to Friday 9-5 in complete safety. This public sector bashing just has to stop, the bullying is pushing people to resign, everyone wants to leave and stress is sky high.

We are all in it together, we should support each other and campaign for a fairer society.

lostinrates

brit1234 wrote: »

I'm sick of all this public sector pay bashing, its a government tactic to turn everyone against each and privatise everything.

In my job the police the longer you work the more skills, experiences you get and you become far more efficient. There is a huge amount to learn and you are constantly learning. As this happens your responsibilities dramatically rise. The yearly pay increases were meant to represent this. They have been stopped, we have had a below inflation 1% rise last year and this year a pay cut with my promised pension destroyed. Promotion has been frozen 5 years, my promotion exam qualification which I spent 6 months studying for and paying hundreds on study material is set to run out after 5 years in March.

We are working constant anti social hours and weekends. we now don't have a social life, my friends don't get to see there families. We deal with the scum of the universe, constantly putting ourselves in harms way to keep the public safe. On Friday I attend my friends funeral who died in the line of duty.

I know it is the same for my colleagues in the fire service, ambulance service and hospitals. I have never had anything against cuts and understand the need for them but when the government keeps launching schemes to price myself out of ever owning a home or being able to afford to start a family despite working my butt off then I have an issue.

I use to work in the private sector with a graduate scheme on better pay and pension. Monday to Friday 9-5 in complete safety. This public sector bashing just has to stop, the bullying is pushing people to resign, everyone wants to leave and stress is sky high.

We are all in it together, we should support each other and campaign for a fairer society.

Brit, I think you are right in many respects, its not help ful to be torn apart, but I don't think its a one sided split, I think that the public sector workers as well as a thoughtless private sector are both contributory to the disconnect.

My father worked for years in the public sector then took his skills in to the row ate sector, like many, where the remuneration was far better. The job in the private sector would not have been available without the public sector background.

I have absolute sympathy with your position, but I think you are arguing something that many people in the private sector would also say about their jobs. Not all private sector jobs are nine to five or complete safety. Its this kind of rhetoric that makes people who have natural sympathy for some public secror workers feel exasperated and frustrated. Not all policemen are hardworking heroes, not all nurses are angels.

As you left your private sector career you know its possible to move careers and sectors.

Ultimately, market force of not being able to recruit adequate people for the job from within EU that would ctainly drive up pay and conditions, and if you feel their are better prositions for you in the current market then while it certainly does NOT resolve the problem for the sector we all make our own choices.

J_i_m

Ignoring the 'Dailymail' type indignant stance towards the public sector and the split from the private sector it seems to incite, I'd warrant that government and society in general needs to be careful.

For a start, they need to be being appreciating services designed to look after them when in need whether they be publicly or privately provided.

After all, a service is only as good as it's staff and the continual squeeze and deteriorating working conditions does nothing to maintain quality standards.

This a very wide ranging topic and in truth it should apply to who ever you are, what ever your profession and whatever sector you belong to.

They system is far from ideal, and it's going to get worse because there is a massive lack of sense in many of the proposals.

Take the recent strikes of the Fire Service for example over disputes with the retirement age and pensions. What the Fire Service do for us is remarkable and the traumas they will receive as a daily part of the job should not be taken lightly. Instead what happens? Their livelihood and retirement provisions are threatened.

Pushing retirement ages further and further up and squeezing pensions may seem like a canny financial intuitive in light of the national deficit but people seem to be conveniently forgetting that the older a person gets then the less fit and health they are likely to be.

How practical and safe is it;

* To have people in their 70's climbing ladders and entering burning buildings?

* To have people in their 70's carrying out the "beat" and policing the streets, how likely is it that they can carry out a pursuit of a thug?

* How many active soldiers are likely to be in their twilight years?

* How many people are in their late 60's and 70's are going to be able to mange to be on their feet all day working in a busy hospital ward environment?

I fully agree, you can apply most of these factors (if not all of these) to private sector jobs, i.e, hospitality, retail etc. The point is that the current trend is simply too unrealistic for most people.

Now, I don't doubt that there will be some elderly people in remarkably good health and very fit. I'm sure there are some who are fitter than me (that wouldn't be difficult) but they are likely to be the exception to the rule.

Why is it, that as a society we automatically squeeze the little man harder and harder, whilst the people raking in the huge profits are seldom pushed to shoulder any of the 'belt tightening'?