Plenty of money for houses....but not for nurses

Graham_Devon

chewmylegoff wrote: »

A couple of stats for you Graham.

There are over 1 million people employed in financial services.

Nearly 20% of the NHS budget (more than £20 billion a year) is set aside to cover the cost of litigation and damages payments to former patients and the families of former patients...

Financial services is more than just bankers, as I guess, you well know.

What is your point about litigation by the way? Are you suggesting that bad practice is common? Have you even considered the fact that medicine is extremely difficult to get right? Maybe you should try it one day?

Graham_Devon

CLAPTON wrote: »

bankers provide water for their staff; sadly nurses don't always do that for their patients

And that's where this conversation has ended up then?

Bankers are better than nurses?

No one willing to suggest how much a nurse is paid? I put the question forward on page 1. A lot seem to think they are paid too much, but no one seems willing to say how much they are worth?

chewmylegoff

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Financial services is more than just bankers, as I guess, you well know.

What is your point about litigation by the way? Are you suggesting that bad practice is common? Have you even considered the fact that medicine is extremely difficult to get right? Maybe you should try it one day?

Absolutely, but then the issues in financial services have not been the sole preserve of bankers. Inter dealer brokers, for instance, were involved in the LIBOR scandal, and PPI was sold by many firms who are not banks. Plenty of mortgage fraud committed by advisors not working for banks.

My point on litigation is that the budget suggests systemic issues - just to take one well known example, scandalously poor hygiene across the NHS is the principle reason that people get infected with MRSA when they come in for a routine op. Reckless mismanagement of this form isn't really any worse than deliberate dishonesty (certainly civil law views the two concepts to be similar in terms of severity).

I think the original point has merit - some people are bad and there are plenty of examples of bad people doing bad things in the NHS. Yet people still elevate the NHS into a pedestal whereas in other industries public perception would not be so positive given all the bad things that have happened. All part of the strange attitude we have towards the NHS - like a general fear of privatising parts of it because profit will take precedence over care, whilst ignoring the fact that GP surgeries, a cornerstone of the whole NHS system, are private businesses run for profit!!

chewmylegoff

Graham_Devon wrote: »

And that's where this conversation has ended up then?

Bankers are better than nurses?

No one willing to suggest how much a nurse is paid? I put the question forward on page 1. A lot seem to think they are paid too much, but no one seems willing to say how much they are worth?

Nurses' pay should be pitched at the amount that attracts a sufficient number of competent people to the industry. As you seem to think that there are no systemic issues with the standard of healthcare (apologies if this is not your view but it seems to be from the posts you have made) then presumably nurses salaries must be at about the right level, otherwise the inadequate salaries on offer would have resulted in the NHS being unable to attract sufficient numbers of nurses of the appropriate standard?

CLAPTON

Graham_Devon wrote: »

And that's where this conversation has ended up then?

Bankers are better than nurses?

No one willing to suggest how much a nurse is paid? I put the question forward on page 1. A lot seem to think they are paid too much, but no one seems willing to say how much they are worth?

No, nurses and doctors have proved repeatedly they are not angels but concerned about careers and pay and prospects like everyone else. I'm not saying they are worse but certainly not better either.

A nurse is worth the same as most other people i.e. what a free market would pay.

At the moment there are plenty of people wanting to become nurses so they are probably overpaid and certainly don't justify an increase relative to other people.

Everyone is worthy of their labour and are entitled to be paid according to their skills relative to the demand.

Graham_Devon

CLAPTON wrote: »

A nurse is worth the same as most other people i.e. what a free market would pay.

At the moment there are plenty of people wanting to become nurses so they are probably overpaid and certainly don't justify an increase relative to other people.

Interesting. To be honest, I've never yet seen anyone suggest a nurse is overpaid, so kudo's to you for standing up to what you believe. I do hope your opinion changes should you ever need a nurses care, however.

However, there certainly aren't "plenty of people wanting to become nurses".

Infact, by 2016, we will hit chronic levels of nurse shortgages.

http://www.nursingtimes.net/nursing-practice/clinical-zones/management/nhs-to-face-chronic-nurse-shortage-by-2016/5059871.article

http://www.nursingtimes.net/nhs-faces-a-nursing-shortage-review-for-rcn-warns/5050873.article

Nurses are even moving abroad to make more money, as the second article refers to.

CLAPTON

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Interesting. To be honest, I've never yet seen anyone suggest a nurse is overpaid, so judo's to you for standing up to what you believe.

However, there certainly aren't "plenty of people wanting to become nurses".

Infact, by 2016, we will hit chronic levels of nurse shortgages.

http://www.nursingtimes.net/nursing-practice/clinical-zones/management/nhs-to-face-chronic-nurse-shortage-by-2016/5059871.article

http://www.nursingtimes.net/nhs-faces-a-nursing-shortage-review-for-rcn-warns/5050873.article

Nurses are even moving abroad to make more money, as the second article refers to.

I would prefer to see list of unfilled vacancies as being more meaningful than a future prediction, from what is probably, not an entirely independent and disinterested source.

Why do you think nurses are under paid?

Graham_Devon

CLAPTON wrote: »

I would prefer to see list of unfilled vacancies as being more meaningful than a future prediction, from what is probably, not an entirely independent and disinterested source.

Why do you think nurses are under paid?

I've not said they are underpaid.

I've merely stood up for their incremental increase, as part of their contract (stating my reasons why, i.e. they start on a lower wage and work up to the standard wage).

I've also defended a cost of living rise.

The links posted above were from a government backed study. It's just reported in the nursingtimes, as it would be, considering it's about nurses.

Loughton_Monkey

chewmylegoff wrote: »

A couple of stats for you Graham.

There are over 1 million people employed in financial services.

Nearly 20% of the NHS budget (more than £20 billion a year) is set aside to cover the cost of litigation and damages payments to former patients and the families of former patients...

Rather perversely, when working in the Insurance industry in Korea, virtually all our underwriters were qualified doctors. They found the pay and conditions far better. Also I recruited about 25/30 nurses as well to do basic medical exams at clients' homes. We were flooded with applications!

Loughton_Monkey

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Interesting. To be honest, I've never yet seen anyone suggest a nurse is overpaid,

Graham_Devon wrote: »

I've not said they are underpaid..

So we seem to be all in agreement. They must be paid about the right amount.

Next?