advice needed asap.

neveranymoney

Fosterdog, It is not harsh from someone who knows there stuff to tell someone else who's heart is in the right place but not up to speed on dog behaviours what is for the best.

Today I woke up a bit more positive about things and could see some light at the end of the tunnel. As I read your post about the trigger stacking (I did read the link, but I cannot distinguish any other triggers, bar other dogs at the minute) and thought, well, 'we will keep walks to a minimum today and keep it chilled'. I let him out the back. The schnauzers from across the street go past the front of the house barking and growling, this triggers off the vocal lab behind us who goes nuts and even if it is just scamps and I out the back, the other dog will begin to let out very deep (to my ears, but what the hell do I know?) warning growls and I just don't know what to do. So much of what I have read had been conflicting, dogs don't really live in the past, only the now but what about abused dogs, the whole trigger stacking thing?

Also, as much as I am desperately upset for the dog and our family and how it affects us all, I keep thinking about the hell the other doggy and owner must be going through too and it make me feel ill.

I am on the verge of bankrupting us and phoning a behaviourist as none of us wants the dog to go, but my husband is worried we will be delaying the inevitable. We have discussed the fact that he works shifts (a week of dawn starts and home around 2 and then a week of lates starting around 2 and ending at midnight) and that I cannot take an agitated dog to do the school runs with a thousand kids, dogs and flip knows what else. I don't drive so I walk everywhere, oh, I'm getting myself all tied up in knots again.

krlyr

Take a deep breath. It won't kill the dog to not walk him for a few days while you wrap your head around the situation - games in the garden and mental stimulation will wear him out too.

There are calmative products in the market you could try too, to take the edge off his behaviour. Adaptil, Pet Remedy, Zylkene, Thundershirts to name a few. I would possibly try changing his food to see it has an effect, as Chappie isn't the best quality. If you're on a budget, look at something like Wainwrights or Skinners - there are lots of threads on cheaper but OK quality dog food in this section.

I wouldn't make any decisions hastily, but just manage things day to day at the moment. Contact some local trainers and behaviourists via the websites linked and see what they suggest.

If your hubby is on shift work, would he take the dog out before or after work? It could be a great opportunity to walk him at times you won't meet many other dogs, without interfering with your daily routine too much

Fosterdog

Just a thought but what have the rescue said about it all?

The rescue I foster for has a behaviourist as a volunteer who helps with most issues with newly rehomed dogs especially during the settling in period. It is usually phone based help but they have also in the past paid for a session with a behaviourist if the problem was really bad or if the new owners don't live near the rescue's behaviourist so not practical for her to go personally.

If they are a decent rescue they should be giving you the help and support you need with this, not just leaving you to cope on your own or hand the dog back.

A friend of mine was recently looking for a behaviourist in her local area and found them ranging in price from £80-£200 with varying degrees of help.

Some just do an initial assessment in person and then put a plan in place and leave you to it while others offer more ongoing support with maybe repeat visits and phone/email support as and when you need it.

I can tell your heart is in the right place and you want to do the best for him, it's not easy when you are in over your head and don't know where to turn. It's also difficult for myself and others to give as much help as we would like without seeing Scampers, he really needs someone to have a session with him to do a proper assessment.

zaksmum

It's all very well trying to walk your dog in a remote area.

But I could look left and right and there wouldn't be another dog in sight.

And then you could bet your life the minute I get out there with my dog, someone with their dog off lead will appear and that dog will come streaking across the field to my dog, jump all over him and then all hell will break loose with my dog trying to murder it and me hanging onto the lead with all my strength!

This has actually happened to me several times - once at 6am on a wet June morning!

And muzzling my dog would definitely put him at risk from the loose staffies that are allowed to wander round here on their own because the owners can't be bothered to walk them.

catkins

I don't know your money situation, but as another poster said, a trainer may be able to help and they are usually much cheaper than a behaviourist. A trainer I know charges £40 a time although I appreciate that may still be too much for you.

Is Scampers insured? As others have said, sometimes insurance will pay for a behaviourist.

If you really cannot go to a trainer or behaviourist I think it is possible to keep Scampers and help him by reading as much as you can, watching videos etc. There are lots of dog forums online. Even on facebook there are some pretty good dog training and advice groups.

I would suggest rather than stressing about a morning walk with children and, as you say, lots of other people, children dogs etc Scampers either goes without walks for a bit in order for everyone to calm down or would it be possible to give him a quick walk once the school run is done? If he is getting stressed on walks he may not miss walks for a bit.

You obviously care a lot for him and don't want to just give him back to rescue so you need time to think things through. You may well end up giving him back but I am sure you wouldn't want to do that then regret it.

It's horrible having a dog that attacks or having a dog that is attacked but, unfortunately, it's not that uncommon as you can see by this thread alone. I have had quite a lot of dogs over the years but, luckily, only the one dog reactive one but I know quite a few people with dog reactive dogs.

At the start, I never thought I would cope with my dog reactive dog. He was big as well which, in some ways, made things worse because complete strangers would tell me a dog that big that had to be muzzled should be pts and certainly never ever let offlead. As I said, he had brilliant recall and if I saw another dog I would call him back. He may have been big but to people, children etc he was a big softie and my baby and I never wanted to give up on him.

I used to absolutely dread walking him to begin with. I had to literally pluck up courage to take him out, I would be a nervous wreck on walks and then get home and shake and cry. I was pathetic really and I certainly did not help him.

It won't be easy to begin but I got there and so can you if you want to. With patience, love and work you can enjoy walks again.

When my pup got attacked a few weeks ago I got home and cried because I thought I would be going down the same road again

JencParker

neveranymoney wrote: »

We literally live in dog central, there are 6 dogs in my small street alone and at least 4 up the street, (think of an open ended t junction) either big deep growly barkers or small, never ending barkers. This does not include the large, very vocal and guarding lab directly out our back, so to get out of our street with out meeting other dogs (some of whom are small so have been therefore deemed safe and left with small children - my blood runs cold at this) would be somewhat miraculous. My husband actually took scamp out in the car tonight and didn't even let him out at the first place they went as it was literally too full of dogs. The second park is flat so you can see all around you, the almost fighting dogs were apparently in the distance and the one that growled at scampers was on leash and walking with its owner away from the altercation later on.

This is where the problem lies, you cannot guarantee a dog free walk anywhere at any time. We may have been naive taking on a dog with very little money to back us up just in case, but we genuinely believed what we could offer, in terms of love, attention and exercise was a better option than the poor thing holed up in kennels.

The two things that worry me the most is that his attack was seemingly without warning and his refusal to let go. At least when dogs are barking and snarling, you know where you are and to get the situation under control pretty damn quick.

He has passed out with his head on my lap and the tears are silently tripping me. I know I shouldn't but i just keep thinking, you dumb dog, why did you do it? You are loved and worshipped and everything lovely to dogs, what more could we do?

Not getting at you and understand how awful you must be feeling, but you have had warnings - you say he has always been dog reactive.

If he's a staffie, then some can be dog aggressive regardless of the socialisation (although agree with those that say that doesn't mean he will be aggressive to humans - they are two completely separate things). That's not to say it can't be managed but I'm wondering if you've bitten off more than you can chew. He will need both training and possibly management for the rest of his life. You really need a qualified behaviourist to give you some help and then it will be hard work. Please consider whether you are ready for this. If not, then please return him to a the rescue rather than rehoming him yourself.

JencParker

pawsies wrote: »

I don't agree with muzzles that much either. It gives the wrong impression to people BUT in this case where there is a serious dog bite and the owner is inexperienced at reading dog body language then it is best to proceed with precaution.

After all, he wasn't defending himself against the Bichon. The Bichon went within his personal space but wasn't attacking him.

The OP is understandably stressed and knowing that her dog cannot bite another dog now will provide some relieve to her and she will relax more on walks which the dog will pick up on. A muzzle is a piece of equipment, and provided it is introduced properly i.e. not just shoved on, it should work well.

Pawsies, I know more dogs that are muzzled because they are terrible scavengers than because they are aggressive. Muzzles are useful tools when necessary, and quite honestly, what other people 'think' is irrelevant. It is this view that stops people using a muzzle when necessary. Whenever I see a dog with a muzzle, I think - 'responsible owner'.

pawsies

How can it possibly give the wrong impression to people? It tells people that the dog may bite, which is true. I'd rather every person with or without a dog crossed the road to avoid my boy when he's muzzled than not muzzle him and somebody thinks he is friendly and lets their dog run right up to him.

Because people won't think he is a problem with other dogs, they are likely to think he is aggressive to people too and bad mouth the dog to everyone around so all the neighbours think oh there is that 'bad dog' again, and perhaps going as far as reporting them to dog warden. Therefore socially isolating OP. 'Everyday' people don't understand dog behaviour like we do, they just think of them and their children and make associations with muzzles and dog attacks.

Having said that, like I said, in this instance a muzzle is the best temporary solution until some behaviour modification can be used (alongside the muzzle of course).

JencParker

pawsies wrote: »

Because people won't think he is a problem with other dogs, they are likely to think he is aggressive to people too and bad mouth the dog to everyone around so all the neighbours think oh there is that 'bad dog' again, and perhaps going as far as reporting them to dog warden. Therefore socially isolating OP. 'Everyday' people don't understand dog behaviour like we do, they just think of them and their children and make associations with muzzles and dog attacks.

Having said that, like I said, in this instance a muzzle is the best temporary solution until some behaviour modification can be used (alongside the muzzle of course).

Who the heck cares what other people think. All dogs are the owners responsibility and they have to first and foremost provide for the dog's needs and also consider the well being of others.

A muzzled dog indicates to me a responsible owner. A dog without a muzzle that should be muzzled means an irresponsible owner.

Oh, and all the dog warden will think is.... responsible owners - why aren't there more of those!.....

neveranymoney

I have literally just got off the phone after a three hour conversation with a lovely man who has really given me light at the end of the tunnel. I was completely open with him about everything and I cannot tell you how much he put me at ease.

The gist of the conversation is this, Scampers is a rescue, we will never know his full background and he feels this particular rescue's heart is in the right place as they never put a healthy dog down and therefore people dump unwanted dogs with them knowing they won't be pts but give no back ground of the dogs behaviour and because Scampers came in with another dog, the rescue automatically think, 'he is dog friendly'.

He said that, (we are not playing the blame game here, I feel awful about the other dog and this guy knows this, I am only repeating the convo) some small dogs are never trained properly and it was very rude of the other dog and not to mention construed as aggression to come up into Scampers face and because my husband tightened his grip of the leash, Scampers had no room to flight instead of fight and felt he had no choice but to defend himself - it is natural for the human owner to do this but its not the best for the dog and that these things don't happen so often off leash - not that he was advocating that - you know what I mean!

He also said that he was a bit more optimistic as Scampers didn't try to rip or tear and that dogs get flooded with chemicals and literally freeze up at this level of stress/whatever you want to call it. When the dog on a lead who is scared of other dogs barks and lunges, he is basically saying, 'go away, I don't want you in my face', this usually ends in the right response to the dog, ie, we trail him away or the other dog gets pulled away so he has got what he wanted - away from the other dog, I'm not explaining this very well!

He is coming out to the house tomorrow and charges considerably less than his normal rates as it is a rescue dog and when I explained it would have to be visa as I have just paid out school fees etc he said certainly and we would discuss that all later. He will come out, assess the dog, stay for a few hours and teach us how to teach Scampers that seeing another dog is gonna be a great thing and he will look at his mummy and get a lovely treat and leave us with a plan. The next few consults are free and the rate is lower again if more is needed. I think he even alluded to bringing a stooge dog with him, if needed.

He was honest and said I may never have a dog who is not dog aggressive, just less so, to the point I could walk past other dogs with out complete meltdown and could I deal with that, I replied that I am willing to give anything a shot with him. He said I was right to get the muzzle, to make it a happy thing (which we were) and to take him on a usual calmish walk today (that was the route that I don't think I could ever face again!) and talk lovingly to him when/if we see other dogs and cross the road, turn around etc until I see the trainer.

His only worry was was the lack of a growl from Scampers, as in, we have never heard him growl ever and he said it was not unusual for dogs to have had their growl punished out of them, for want of a better phrase.

I said my main concern was Scampers and his safety around humans and he said you cannot guarantee that with ANY dog, he asked a few questions about his behaviour with us, like when he displays his belly to be rubbed, where is his tale? The licking of lips and the need of a really good chew toy to chill him out, how does he react to strangers etc.

At that, my very quiet house was invaded by my teen daughter and her chum back from their first morning at school. He had never met my daughters friend before, he went over, gave a little sniff to her and went about his own business and later hopped up the stairs to see what the girls were doing and cosied up with them.

It is going to be a long road but I feel tremendously better. I don't know what is going to happen, but does anybody really? We are trying our best and thats all we can do. Thank you all so much for your advice, no one knows all this dog stuff straight away and this guys positive manner really settled me. I will let you all know the out come tomorrow.

I must go and attend to the teens, I think my daughter just found out she is in the higher tier at her grammar school for GCSE's, WOOHOO!