advice needed asap.

zaksmum

pawsies wrote: »

Hopefully by keeping him muzzled it'll encourage other dog owners to avoid him now and recall their dogs quicker.

Good luck with it all.

But how can he defend himself if he's muzzled and he is attacked?

chris_n_tj

Please please try and relax when you take him out for his walks. Your stress will be felt down the leash and wont help him. Calm and happy will xxx

gettingready

zaksmum wrote: »

But how can he defend himself if he's muzzled and he is attacked?

This is why I do not muzzle Zara.

I walk her where I can see 360 degrees around me and at time where there is no people/dogs or minimum number of dogs.


She is very weird, she will pas 873468696 dogs with no reaction but there will be one she dislikes for whatever reason, no rule:black, white, large, small, whatever.

It hardly ever happens now and I ALWAYS grab her if/when it does.

BUT the pet hate is dogs running to her with owners miles away :mad:

My dog is WITH me, within reach all the time.

Unless we are on a group walk when I KNOW she is ALWAYS fine.

If you have your dog on a lead - that should be secure enough.

Other dog owners need to take responsibility for their dogs too.

Person_one

zaksmum wrote: »

But how can he defend himself if he's muzzled and he is attacked?

In all my years of walking dogs, none of them have ever had to 'defend themselves'. I don't think that's a good enough reason to let a dog that you know to be a danger to other dogs walk around without a muzzle.

neveranymoney

We literally live in dog central, there are 6 dogs in my small street alone and at least 4 up the street, (think of an open ended t junction) either big deep growly barkers or small, never ending barkers. This does not include the large, very vocal and guarding lab directly out our back, so to get out of our street with out meeting other dogs (some of whom are small so have been therefore deemed safe and left with small children - my blood runs cold at this) would be somewhat miraculous. My husband actually took scamp out in the car tonight and didn't even let him out at the first place they went as it was literally too full of dogs. The second park is flat so you can see all around you, the almost fighting dogs were apparently in the distance and the one that growled at scampers was on leash and walking with its owner away from the altercation later on.

This is where the problem lies, you cannot guarantee a dog free walk anywhere at any time. We may have been naive taking on a dog with very little money to back us up just in case, but we genuinely believed what we could offer, in terms of love, attention and exercise was a better option than the poor thing holed up in kennels.

The two things that worry me the most is that his attack was seemingly without warning and his refusal to let go. At least when dogs are barking and snarling, you know where you are and to get the situation under control pretty damn quick.

He has passed out with his head on my lap and the tears are silently tripping me. I know I shouldn't but i just keep thinking, you dumb dog, why did you do it? You are loved and worshipped and everything lovely to dogs, what more could we do?

chris_n_tj

Nothing so stop beating yourself up. MY SIL took on a rescue a few years ago Pete is his name, he looks so docile, butter wouldnt melt kind of dog. He sure looks an odd ball and with humans he is fine and dandy. He will sit and let you dress him up in anything, he looks so laid back its unreal. He just doesnt like other dogs. As a rescue no one knows what he went through before he arrived at his forever home, and yes it is his forever home. He is loved and no matter what happens he is there to stay bless him.
They brought him to ours and we had Dexter visiting he was a puppy, Pete went full pelt for him. Had he got him he would have killed, I kid you not.

Pete cant go where there's other dogs. My SIL loves him, as we all do. The way they get around his dislike of other dogs is this. She takes him out for walks very early in the morning or very late at night.
Pete has his own FB it is an open FB so if anyone wants to check him out i will gladly give you his FB name. It might show the OP that there is light at the end of the tunnel even of she doesnt think so at this moment.

You just have to plan ahead and try to think of other ways to entertain him. This could have jsut been a one off, but now at least you know what might happen you can be ready.
Just remember no one knows what he went through before he came to you, its so sad that many of these rescue furkids have seen untold horrors in their lives. As I said last night it wasnt the fight nor the dogs that upset me, I will fight in any dogs corner to give it a chance of a good life, and if that means a walk in the dark then so be it.

Dry your tears and give him a hug, tomorrow is a new day xxxx

pawsies

zaksmum wrote: »

But how can he defend himself if he's muzzled and he is attacked?

I don't agree with muzzles that much either. It gives the wrong impression to people BUT in this case where there is a serious dog bite and the owner is inexperienced at reading dog body language then it is best to proceed with precaution.

After all, he wasn't defending himself against the Bichon. The Bichon went within his personal space but wasn't attacking him.

The OP is understandably stressed and knowing that her dog cannot bite another dog now will provide some relieve to her and she will relax more on walks which the dog will pick up on. A muzzle is a piece of equipment, and provided it is introduced properly i.e. not just shoved on, it should work well.

Pechow

neveranymoney wrote: »

The two things that worry me the most is that his attack was seemingly without warning and his refusal to let go. At least when dogs are barking and snarling, you know where you are and to get the situation under control pretty damn quick.

This is another thing that a good behaviourist will be able to help you with-reading his body language and picking up on the tiny subtle warnings signs that you may not know about. It's very unlikely it was without warning at all, just that they were very subtle (and so the other dog ignored or didn't pick up on it) or that the warning signs were in another form (say he was stressed out, didn't feel well, whatever) and the other dog invading his space was simply the last straw for him. It sounds like it could help your confidence with him to be able to read him better too.

Fosterdog

neveranymoney, some of this is going to sound harsh, mater of fact and to the point and I apologise now if it upsets you, I don't want to but I want to help you and scampers.

Firstly, WHY has scampers been taken out to a busy area so soon? It won't kill him or you for him to have a few days of no walk at all, it's what he needs to calm down. Take the time at home to tire his mind instead with training. He needs to learn a strong "watch me" command, a "leave it command" and you can start on properly training him to accept the muzzle instead of just putting it on him.

Krlyr has mentioned trigger stacking and given you a link, in case you haven't read it the basics are:

After a stressful incident it can take up to three days of no further stress for the dog to get back to "neutral".

Each time a dog encounters something stressful it is added on top of current stress levels. It takes a while for the stress levels to drop so anything in the mean time just heightens the stress.

With no "down time" eventually the dog reaches boiling point and that's when things like Scampers bite occur.

With Scampers he had already had some small amounts of stress each time you had seen another dog during Saturdays walk, each dog maybe adding 1 point, with no time away each of these points has added up so say five dogs on the walk puts him at level 5, plus anything else that may stress him that you haven't discovered yet as you haven't had him long, maybe 2 points added on for these.

This leaves him at level 7 again with no time for this to drop down, along comes another dog, only this time instead of being 1 point, the dog is coming towards him and is in his face "saying hello" this counts as 3 stress points to scamper and suddenly you are at level 10 with scamper attacking the other dog.

You've taken him home and after a while his stress levels start to drop but they go down 1 point at a time with each one taking several hours. As he was already at 10 points he may have only dropped to say level 3 when you took him to the vet which adds another 2 points and puts him back to level 5. You then take him for a walk yesterday when he still hasn't dropped to 0 and add more points on with every dog he sees, more points for the dogs fighting in the distance.

Right now you are setting him up to fail, he still needs a proper vet check and tests, not just the basic lookover he got and being told everything is fine.

You have to find somewhere quiet to walk him for now, done properly it won't be a permanent thing it's just while you adjust to life with a dog aggressive dog, he still has to learn to trust you, six weeks is not long at all. Eventually you can move onto busier walks but that could be months down the line. Right now he is still to stressed from the weekend events and continuing his walks with other dogs is going to keep making him worse.

As I said with my boy it has been 18 months and I still wouldn't put him through the type of walk you have taken Scampers on.

For Scampers sake you are going to have to make a tough decision one way or the other, you either keep him and are prepared to put in the work long term and not have the family dog walks you were imagining, or you send him back to the rescue where they can work on his issues and maybe find him a hime where they can work with a stressy dog and understand his needs more.

I know it sounds harsh but that's what it boils down to, you loving him like a member of the family is not enough, he needs help.

On another note

pawsies wrote: »

I don't agree with muzzles that much either. It gives the wrong impression to people

How can it possibly give the wrong impression to people? It tells people that the dog may bite, which is true. I'd rather every person with or without a dog crossed the road to avoid my boy when he's muzzled than not muzzle him and somebody thinks he is friendly and lets their dog run right up to him.

catkins

Neveranymoney, having been in your position I would like to try and answer a few of your concerns.

I live in an area full of dogs. It is impossible for me to walk my dog at any time, realistically, and not meet other dogs. I tried walking my previous dog at times from 5.30 am to 11am and just about always met other dogs (not just one but several). The same is true in the afternoon/evening/night.

My pup now gets too excited when he sees other dogs and I am trying to train him but it is very difficult when on almost every walk we see about 10 dogs. H

It is possible though. If you see another dog you can cross the road or turn around. Yes it is a pain sometimes, yes people may think you are mad when you cross the road then minutes later cross again because there is another dog on the side you crossed to.

It is very upsetting. The first couple of times my dog was "funny" to another dog he too showed no signs. In fact he was playing with one, another he was wagging his tail. He actually did not bite them but I was so upset I started crying in the park. I got home and was shaking and crying. I really did not want to walk him again but I had no choice as my husband works long hours and just could not walk him on weekdays.

When I saw a behaviourist she said my anxiety and fear was passing to my dog. I thought yes I am sure it is but how on earth do you not be anxious about a dog that may attack another? I didn't want to muzzle him. He didn't like it at first and it upset me seeing my beautiful boy muzzled but it made me feel happier knowing he couldn't bite another dog. I did worry that if he were attacked he could not defend himself but the behaviourist said dogs can defend with their paws as well as their mouths.

People with children used to cross the road if they saw me walking him muzzled which, again, upset me, but better that than worry about him meeting another dog. Eventually I only ever muzzled him if I let him offlead. He had fantastic recall and if I saw another dog I would just call him back. On lead I would just avoid coming close to another dog although stupid owners who say "oh my dog is fine" or the ones that have them offlead in the street with no control drove me mad.

If you are going to keep Scampers you need some time for you, your family and him to calm down. Can you just play with him in the house and/or garden for a couple of days so none of you have the stress of walks? Otherwise keep the walks fairly short, keep to areas where there are likely to be less dogs and try, although I know it is very very difficult, to keep calm.