advice needed asap.

neveranymoney

I can't explain how much a member of the family he is, no matter how long he had been here. We are getting a new suite and I actually asked the man in the shop about dogs up on it and he said he wouldn't be getting a new suite and letting a dog on it. I was a bit put out, I would rather snuggle the dog than have pristine furniture. On Saturday we were going out on a quick errand and we had already been out half an hour that morning so I actually said to my husband, 'can we bring spider pig with us?'

He has never been a very playful dog, he will take the odd notion with his ball but it never lasts too long and be really doesn't like sticks of any kind. He had flinched from the brush at the start but we had gotten past that and was even trying to eat crumbs that I was sweeping up but he had reverted back to this. He sometimes looks quite sad but his wee personality was really coming out and he is in his glory when you say 'where's your lead?' And he hops about then sits to get all his business on and just wants to lie beside/all over you when in the house.

catkins

neveranymoney wrote: »

I did mention thyroid and blood tests but he was largely dismissive as his temp was checked and he let the vet have a fair old hoak at him, bum, paws, down his throat, heart etc. He is a terrier mix, a bit like a tan Eddie from Frazier, mixed with a boarder terrier. Whilst the vet did comment on how he let the vet prod or poke at him without the slightest sign of aggression, he did conversationally comment on the fact that his surgery have never had a problem with staffys and humans and that he could list a hundred other dogs that they do, they all know that they aren't a great breed with other dogs and they know to make sure any staffies they have are always secured before they bring other dogs out, just to be safe. He definitely was veering on the side of sending him back to the rescue and even offered to ring them for me before we left the surgery but I was in too much of a state at the time to make a decision.

It probably isn't his thyroid but vet's don't always get it right. I was sure my last dog had a thyroid problem but when I took him to the vet the vet was very rude to me. He asked me why I thought my dog had thyroid problems and when I said I had read the symptoms online and my dog had a lot of them he said "oh an owner who has read something online and thinks they know better than a vet who has done x amount of years of training".

He was so rude and dismissive I felt like crying. Stupidly I thought oh the vet must know so did nothing for a few months. Then I went to another vet who was lovely and listened to me and did a blood test and, yes, my boy had a very underactive thyroid which the vet was pretty sure he had had for some time. I felt so guilty not insisting the first time that the rude vet did blood tests and it made be realise vet's are not infallible.

I personally wouldn't necessarily listen to a vet who said the dog should go back to rescue. He can't possibly know what your dog will be like in the future nor can he judge all dogs of one breed as being "nice" or "not nice" - that just ridiculous.

He says his surgery has never had a problem with staffies and yet people and dogs have been attacked by staffies. I am not saying all staffies are nasty - of course they are not. I know plenty of lovely friendly soft ones BUT my pup was attacked by a staffie recently

catkins

dandelionclock30 wrote: »

You cant keep your eye on a dog 24/7 and they can run out of the house/garden etc if you have a quick slip up. I know loads of dogs that have nipped off by themselves.
I dont think I'm scaremongering, I know dogs who have attacked people who also attacked other dogs. One was a rescue grayhound and the other was a gun dog. The former was sent back to the rescue and the other was PTS as it wouldnt let go of its owners lip.
I also wouldnt want my children having to see things like my dog attacking another. Who wants their children exposed to that?
A person doesnt have to have this worry, I wouldnt put up with it when there are gentle dogs out there. Sorry but lifes too short to be worrying about what if with an aggressive dog.

I have had over 14 dogs over the years and NOT ONE of them has ever escaped from the house or garden because I make sure they don't. I would be worried about them getting run over or stolen. I never answer my front door until I know my dog cannot run out.

The owner of the staffie that attacked my pup recently opened his front door and the dog ran out and, to me, there was no valid reason for that. I don't know any dogs that have escaped from their homes but maybe I know responsible dog owners.

I think you are scaremongering. Only the OP can make the decision on what to do and I fully appreciate her fears for her children BUT, as I said there are plenty of dogs that don't like other dogs but are as gentle as can be with people.

No, I wouldn't want a child to witness a dog attack but if the OP's dog is muzzled it can't attack another dog can it?

dandelionclock30

Well the dog has a question mark over it doesnt it? nobody can say yes it will attack a child or no it wont because nobody knows either way.
Its upto her whether she wants to keep it or not obviously. Its totally her shout.

catkins

dandelionclock30 wrote: »

Well the dog has a question mark over it doesnt it? nobody can say yes it will attack a child or no it wont because nobody knows either way.
Its upto her whether she wants to keep it or not obviously. Its totally her shout.

Yes, as I already said, of course it is up to the OP and no one would blame her if she decided to get rid of the dog. However, as I and others have said, plenty of dogs that show aggression to other dogs never show the slightest aggression to humans.

When I had problems with my dog and started muzzling him quite a few people told me I should get rid of him - either rehome or pts. There was no way on earth I was going to do either of those things without good reason. It was probably easier for me because me and OH have no children but there were young children that he came into fairly frequent contact with. If he had even once shown the slightest aggression to a child or adult he would have been pts - no rescue would really want to take an aggressive dog. He never did and his dog problem I could deal with.

Any dog, particularly a rescue when the history is not really known, could turn out to be aggressive. One of the gentlest softest dogs I have ever known snapped at a child once. I would have practically staked my life on that dog never been aggressive even if you were hurting him. Turns out it was a hot day, dog had an upset stomach and child started pulling on him (not their child I would add)

krlyr

dandelionclock30 wrote: »

Well the dog has a question mark over it doesnt it? nobody can say yes it will attack a child or no it wont because nobody knows either way.
Its upto her whether she wants to keep it or not obviously. Its totally her shout.

You could say the same for absolutely any dog though. How do you prove a dog isn't going to perhaps do something?

The dog is showing some form of dog-related aggression. It has not done this attack out of the blue - it has given very clear signs it is uncomfortable with other dogs, it is just unfortunate that there are lots of similarities between a dog acting fearful or aggressive and a dog that is frustrated because it wants to play. OP took a pretty sensible view in erring on the side of caution for the most part, it's just an unfortunate incident that has shown OP's dog real intention.

If you are afraid of spiders, does it mean you will be afraid of cats, too? Or someone afraid of a Rottweiler may not be afraid of a Pomeranian. Dogs can develop specific dislikes, like us - some dogs become wary and aggressive towards black Labs because they were once attacked by them, some nervous around larger dogs because they were never exposed to them as a youngster, some unsure of breeds like Akitas because the curled tail mimics the upright, slightly tense stance a dog with a drop-tail would adopt when nervous or unhappy.

OP's dog seems to have quite a predictable trigger, i.e. small dogs. The only sense in which this dog may be more likely to bite a child than any other dog is that it could possibly redirect its fear/aggression (most aggression is fear-based, which is why I keep mentioning that word) of a small dog onto a nearby human, but if OP is being sensible and using a muzzle, it sounds like they can be sensible enough with keeping the dog under control around children too.


OP, sorry your vet visit wasn't as reassuring as you hoped. I can only echo the majority of the responses - I would take the advise of the vet nurse with a pinch of salt. Yes, aggressive behaviour is not generally fixed overnight, but it can be a very managable behaviour. Knowing your dog has issues can sometimes make things easier - your average dog with no issues always has the potential to develop one, and like you've found, suddenly finding yourself in the situation where your dog has latched onto another is quite traumatic. The silver lining is that you now know to use a muzzle, and you don't have to worry about that situation cropping up again.

Please do check out the Youtube video I mentioned, the link is here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FABgZTFvHo
Like you mentioned, a dog knowing a piece of equipment is a good thing will make them happy to wear it. A muzzle will feel more alien than a harness, because it is on the face area, so just popping it on when you go on walks may not be sufficient. Using the correect introductory methods, like in the video, will make him look forward to wearing it all of the time, and it will be a much more pleasant experience for him.

On the medical side of things, I do agree in getting a second opinion. I am another person who really had to talk my vet into treating my dog for hypothyroidism (her results were "in range" but very low) and her behaviour improved immensely. Aggression wasn't one of her symptoms but anxiety was a big one, and she started to become quite nervous around other dogs. Having a Rottie cross hiding from little terriers may seem funny, but she got worse and worse and began barking at them to try to scare them off and so on - very stressful for her, and not so fun for me either! Her behaviour became somewhat learnt, so whilst the medication fixed a lot of her issues quite quickly, we are working on her reactive behaviour towards other dogs over time.

A simple ears/ears/temperature check can miss a whole host of issues. It may not be something as "exotic" as hypothyroidism, but it could be unnoticed joint pain, a dietary intolerance causing a belly ache, a wobbly tooth making him sore and grumpy. A thorough exam is necessary, and a good vet shouldn't be reluctant to do that with a symptom such as aggression.

On the subject of food - what do you feed him? Some dogs can have a bad reaction to certain foods and it can cause unwanted behaviour. The most common issue is hyperactivity through excessive e-numbers, e.g. Bakers type food, but I have heard more and more cases of more vague symptoms on better quality foods. For example, I know of someone with three dogs who found they were starting to have fallings out in the house. It coincided with her upgrading their food to a better brand, so out of interest she switched the main culprit to his old food, and his behaviour significantly improved. Diet is another place to look with iffy behaviour.

If it turns out this is purely a 100% behavioural issue, no external cause, there is still hope. You can teach an old dog new tricks, and teach an aggressive dog to tolerate, or even enjoy the company of other dogs.
Check out the success stories from this trainer - one of a GSD with human aggression, the other a SWD with human and dog issues

http://www.druidalegsd.karoo.net/shadow.htm
http://www.druidalegsd.karoo.net/leon1.htm

She mentions counterconditioning and desensitisation, which are great ways to deal with an issue like you're facing. Desensitisation is where you expose the dog to its trigger, very slowly increasing the intensity. So this may be taking your dog to a field with a small dog on the other side. Over the course of days/weeks/months (however long it takes him, going at a comfortable pace), decreasing the distance of the other dog. Then you do it with another dog, and another dog, then two at a time, and so on.
Counterconditioning is where you modify the dog's mindset. Right now your dog dislikes something about small dogs. He finds them scary, most likely, as lots of aggressive behaviour stems from fear and having the fight or flight problem (dogs on leads can rarely choose the flight option, which is why dogs often have far less problems with other dogs when off-lead, though this isn't always the case). You use a reward to change his mindset - if he's food orientated, you feed him lots of treats when a small dog appears in eyesight. Over time, his brain realises small dog = treats, and instead of their appearance scaring him, he looks forward to it because it means he gets his reward. You phase out the reward over time, because his association with small dogs has turned from negative to positive.

If it seems overwhelming, I'd definately recommend a behaviourist to help. If you have pet insurance, there are lots of behaviourists through which you can claim on your insurance. Otherwise, speak to local behaviourists and see if there's a payment plan option. Remember that you will likely only need one visit - so although it's an expense, it's a one-off. They like to visit you in your home, walk the local area, meet all the family and then give advice tailored to your situation, along with a specific plan on how to move forward. Most will offer telephone or email backup following the visit, so you can ask further questions, get help following the plan, etc.

If a behaviourist is definately out of your price range, consider a trainer instead. Many won't deal with aggression, but there is a blurry line for some trainers on when they're a trainer and when they're a behaviourist - they may have started as one with an interest in the more serious behavioural issues, and therefore have the knowledge and/or experience to deal with this kind of issue, without the behaviourist pricetag.

I would recommend finding either behaviourist or trainer through http://www.apbc.org.uk or http://www.apdt.co.uk - both registers have codes of practice which ensure they don't use physical methods like choke chains, shock collars, etc. (which will make a fearful dog worse)

There is also a vast amount of videos on Youtube etc. to help with this kind of issue. I would say be careful which ones you pick - again, you want modern, fair methods. I would recommend Kikopup and pamelamarsxen to be two fab channels, Kikopup especially may address some of the issues you're facing, but pamelamarxsen will have lots of self-control etc. which will most likely be a very helpful thing to teach him (don't just address the aggressive behaviour, but improving things like self-control, focus on you, focus around distractions, etc. will help with that behaviour as well).
http://www.youtube.com/kikopup
http://www.youtube.com/pamelamarxsen

It can seem overwhelming at first, but you do soon get in the swing of it. My first puppy was reactive, mainly due to her severe hip dysplasia with a good dose of poor breeding, being homed from her mum too soon and missing out of vital socialisation as a pup with her first owner. My next dog was normal - but she's the one who developed the thyroid issues and became reactive. And my other dog was supposedly good with dogs but suffered dog reactivity from the day I got him, he's actually terrified of other dogs (big male GSD, a teeny JRT absolutely traumatised him one time, it was pitiful to see!).

So I've been avoiding other dog walkers, going to reactive dog workshops, seeing various trainers, practising all kinds of commands and techniques to make life more managable and enjoyable for me and the dogs, for the past 10 years. I'd love a "normal" dog, but I still get a lot of enjoyment out of my pair. Inside the house, you couldn't ask for better dogs - they're huge softies with people and although I exercise caution around small children, they've been brilliant with all the kids they have met.

We have to make a few compromises - we avoid really busy parks but can use one locally that has several exits we can duck out of if necessary, they're not the kind of dogs I could sit outside the pub with, just incase a dog walked nearby, but we still enjoy long walks in quieter countryside areas, and I've managed much better than expected on moving to a more built-up area with more neighbourhood dogs, we're generally OK to pass by a dog on the other side of the road and I just try to avoid alleyways that might have us cornered.

Your dog now has a bite history, and you need to accept that he could bite again. But it's a very specific issue and one I feel could be managed pretty easily, especially as it's not like you might be dragged across the road like with a 70kg Mastiff with a grudge! Introducing the muzzle, taking precautions with doorways (I'd recommend a babygate across the hallway so he can never door-dash, and perhaps even something like this on the front door http://www.amazon.co.uk/Baby-Stop-Security-Barrier-Doors/sim/B005HAK73S/2 ), make sure your garden is secure (I wouldn't recommend leaving a dog unattended in a garden anyway, for health and theft reasons) and use a double-ended lead with a harness and collar to minimise the chance of his collar breaking or slipping his harness. Develop a good attention span on walks - no getting lost in music with an MP3 player or chatting on your phone, take time to scan the horizon, decide whether an alleyway is suitable or if there's a safer alternative, turn 180 degrees and walk away from an approaching dog if you're concerned. It soon becomes second nature and isn't as much effort as it may sound on 'paper'.

I definately feel you can continue to enjoy your obviously much-loved family pet, but ultimately only you can decide if you can manage it and begin to trust him again. Perhaps the rescue would be happy for you to keep trying with him and them standing by as backup - they may need a few days notice but I'm sure they'd prefer him to remain in his home if possible.

orlao

C'Mon OP, it's not all that bad - yes, the poor Bichon got bitten but please believe me that any injury around the muzzle area usually looks a lot worse than it really is, it's an area that bleeds a LOT - a bit like a cut to our heads, often when you mop away the gallons of blood it's only a scratch.

I have a dog aggressive JRT, also a rescue. When he goes for another dog, especially when he's on a short lead he means it and will draw blood and not let go. But it's easily managed - he's muzzled when he's out. It's not difficult honestly, it takes an extra minute to put on as you put the lead on and the dog will soon associate it as a GOOD thing because it means walk time

My dog, while he is an absolute s*d with other dogs is an angel with people and adores kids - he is only the second dog that I've had in 20+ years that I would trust implicitly (always supervised of course) with children. He will tolerate stuff that he really isn't keen on like brushing from children just to have their attention...if I want to groom him I have to catch him first!

My advice would be to calm down a little - I know you've had a shock but believe me dog aggression doesn't automatically translate to people aggression. You now have to learn to manage your dog, you've had loads of great advice here. If you can't afford a behaviourist see if you can find a decent dog training club locally and sign up. Normally I'd say ask at your vets for recommendations but maybe not in this case. Talk to the rescue he came from and ask them for advice/recommendations? The poor dog is probably acting out of sorts because of the emotions running high in your house at the moment so deep breaths and remember it's not the end of the world just a little blip. Accidents happen and it's relatively easy to make sure that this incident won't be repeated.

While it would be very nice of you to pay the Bichon's vet bills you have no legal obligation to do so as your dog was under control on a short lead and the other dog wasn't. I'm not unsympathetic to the other owner btw as I've been there myself but she has to take some responsibility for her own actions too. Also, if you do find some training classes please learn as quickly as possible how to safely break up a dog fight, it's something that every dog owner should know how to do, after all even if we all owned dogs that didn't fight you never know when another dog could attack yours so you do need to know how to do it IMHO.

meritaten

I am horrified at the vet nurse! HOW many of us have posted last night that we had owned beautiful sweet natured dogs which we just cannot trust around certain other dogs?
Scampers deserves his reprieve hun - I bet the reason he is so down is he has been down this road before! he bites another dog and before he knows it he is down the rescue!
The problem is solved if he NEVER goes out in public without his muzzle!
I couldn't keep a dog which bit a human without provocation, but, as I said in my post dogs do fight...........and as they cant speak to us we often don't understand what provoked them.
Just keep to the muzzle until you can afford that behaviourist hun. and don't let it colour your attitude to Scampers!

codemonkey

I second all the posters who have said that being dog aggressive isn't the same as being people aggressive. My last lab was the sweetest dog, loved her cuddles, loved kids - the family kids played with her, pulled her tail, rode her like a horse, dressed her up in funny outfits and she never so much as growled, just tolerated it, and was fine with dogs she'd known since puppyhood, but put her in the same area as a new dog and it was scary. She flew at them and fought. She fought with Rottweilers, she fought with big dogs, small dogs with no provocation and it was terrifying. The amount of people who let their dogs bounce up to her just because she was a lab didn't help. And yes, it was horrible. There's no way we would have rehomed her just because she turned into Mike Tyson when confronted with another dog though. We just did our best to avoid other dogs.

I know it's scary when your dog does something like this, but it doesn't mean he's a bad dog who will attack you or your kids. Give him a go with the muzzle, give him hugs and try to behave normally with him while you decide.

Person_one

I would say don't give up on the idea of improving his behaviour around other dogs. Obviously a muzzle is an essential right now but you could, with time and hard work, reach a stage where you have a well socialised and non-reactive Scampers, and life will be easier and happier for all of you if you can get there.

One of my rescue dogs showed some signs of reactivity when I first got him, nothing as serious as a bite but stress signals and growling/barking. We went to classes, I used my family members' well socialised dogs as stooges and I read a small library's worth of dog training/behaviour info. It didn't take long at all for those issues to vanish and for him to be relaxed and friendly with other dogs. I know your situation is far more serious but it is possible.