Arriva Fare Evasion

esuhl

Stigy wrote: »

I was directly replying to your unrealistic comment about a Ticket Machine only accepting pennies and having to use 15,000 of them for your £150 train ticket to the other side of the country. I was pointing out that as more than 20p in copper isn't classed as legal tender, it would not be possible or realistic for a TOC to demand you pay a train fare in copper, regardless of the amount. That would never happen and therefore isn't a reasonable point or comparison to the OPs case, to raise in this case.

The concept of legal tender only applies to settling debts by court order! When using a ticket machine before travelling, you do not fall into debt, so the concept of legal tender is completely irrelevant and "therefore isn't a reasonable point or comparison to the OP's case, to raise in this case"...

Stigy wrote: »

From re-reading Post 1, it would appear that the TVM is a card only TVM, and wasn't merely faulty by only accepting card payments (a lot of TOCs only have these now as they're less vulnerable to break-in). That being the case, the company are quite within their rights here. Is it reasonable for their staff to not use a bit more discretion in such situations? Maybe. At the end of the day, the OP's friend was in breach of Byelaw 18 by not buying a ticket before boarding, assuming the Ticket Machine was in full working order etc and Byelaw 18(3) doesn't come in to play.

It's totally irrelevant whether the ticket machine was intentionally preventing cash payments or whether it was a malfunction.

It is simply not true that you MUST (with no exceptions) buy a ticket before boarding a train. You are only obliged to buy a ticket where provision has been made for you to do so. If you want to pay by cash (as is your legal right, as stated in the conditions of carriage) and you are not provided with an opportunity to do so, then you cannot be penalised for boarding a train without a ticket.

geordie_taxi wrote: »

It's about time all these byelaws and railway acts were brought into the 21st century to be fairer to the consumer but alas that would affect shareholders' profits.

and yes I have wrote to my MP, his answer wasn't helpful.

Out of curiosity, what specifically did you complain about?

geordie_taxi

esuhl wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what specifically did you complain about?

Strict Liability of railway byelaws and how a private company has the right to use them to increase revenue/profits.

LimeLight

Having a ticket is useful when your train arrives late for a connection and you miss the last train. The company will pay for a taxi if you have a ticket. If you don't, then you're on your own.

yorkie2

I have proof read a letter for the alleged defendant in this case.

If what he says is correct, then I am confident that ATW will drop the case.

If a passenger is paying by cash, then they do not have an "opportunity to buy" at Abercynon station. If the guard is busy elsewhere in the train and does not get to sell a ticket to the passenger, and if the passenger then queues at their destination to pay, clearly no offence has been committed.

So unless there is something missing, I am confident that the case will be dropped by ATW or won by the defendant (providing the defendant is properly represented by an experienced solicitor in Court).

sputty01 wrote: »

I had a mate in a very similar situation. He went just one stop on the train but didn't have his card on him, walked off the train with his money already in hand to pay and got stopped by some jobsworths from the train company (in this case it was first transpennine or northern rail... i forget).

The whole thing ended up with him going to court, suffice to say the judge was not impressed and told the train company it was pathetic that they had taken the issue so far. The total fair in question... £2.20.

:doh:

So the TOC lost the court case? I'd be very interested to read more about this! Can you supply me with any details, either on here, or via PM please? Thanks!

yorkie2

geordie_taxi wrote: »

It's about time all these byelaws and railway acts were brought into the 21st century to be fairer to the consumer but alas that would affect shareholders' profits.

and yes I have wrote to my MP, his answer wasn't helpful.

I don't always agree with what you say, but I certainly do agree with your post above. The law in this country is extremely biased towards the Train Operating Companies, and it's about time that MPs did something about it.

yorkie2

timbo58 wrote: »

It IS right. You must have an acceptable form of payment for the service and purchase the ticket before travel.

He did have an acceptable form of payment, cash. The rule is simply that you should purchase at the first opportunity. As the origin station has a card-only ticket machine, the first opportunity would normally be on board the train.

However, as anyone who uses ATW Valley Lines services will know, the guard cannot always sell tickets to all customers before they reach their destination, due to high volumes of passengers boarding at stations without adequate ticket issuing facilities. So, in these circumstances, the first opportunity may well be at the destination station.

If a passenger is caught by-passing a ticket office at their destination, then a prosecution is likely to succeed. But, in this case, the OP's friend informs us that he went directly to the ticket office, and was apprehended in the queue. If that is true, then a prosecution is highly unlikely to succeed as the passenger has done nothing wrong.

This is not the first time I've assisted someone with an ATW matter, where ATW's agents have been in the wrong, and I doubt it'll be the last either.

ATW do not directly employ these officers, they are sub-contracted. I would also go so far as to say they are 'sub-standard'.

yorkie2

timbo58 wrote: »

However The toc should have checked this before proceeding with any action...

Yes, they should. But it's all contracted out to people who do not fully understand the rules of fares & ticketing.

timbo58 wrote: »

, if they found the machine DID indeed accept all normal (i.e. normally provided for methods) payments then this was the 1st opportunity to pay,

It's a card-only machine, they're not uncommon! There's quite a few near me. So that was not an opportunity to pay.

timbo58 wrote: »

if it didn't they can then check if the train had any ticket purchasing facilities on it (i.e. a guard/conductor) if that is true then this would have been either the 1st or 2nd opportunity to pay.

Have you been on Valley Lines services? I'm guessing not. They do all have a Guard, but the Guard may be busy selling tickets elsewhere in the train, and/or passengers from further up the branch. The ticket issuing facilities on these lines are woefully inadequate, so many passengers would need to be served.

The priority for the Guard is the safety, followed by timekeeping of the train. Retail duties come after this.

timbo58 wrote: »

IF the machine is checked and found it DIDN'T accept payments by an advertised means then this is permissible to allow for.

I am not sure what you mean; can you clarify?

timbo58 wrote: »

IF the train is checked and there were NO ticketing facilities either then his defence is solid and the prosecution will be dropped.

This is impracticable to check, as there will be hundreds of people on board the train, with the Guard doing his/her best to issue tickets to as many of them as possible within the constraints of the timetable.

timbo58 wrote: »

No one is seriously saying if you don't have a certain type of payment type you are banned and ticket machines usually accept debit/credit cards and cash as payment.
On your point of 'cash' per se, many places no longer accept cash here & abroad on automated systems -Petrol stations being one very good example.

For details of acceptable methods of payment, see http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/45185.aspx

timbo58 wrote: »

It's all down to what types of payment are advertised as being available: it wouldn't surprise me if ticket machines stop taking cash at some time in the future in any case.

Well, I've provided a link for acceptable payment methods, but if you are paying by a method that is unavailable at your origin station, then that is not an opportunity to buy.

tehone

timbo58 wrote: »

i.e. 'cash, debit & credit cards are all accepted at our booking offices during opening hours, outside of these times credit/debit cards only are accepted at our ticket machines'.

You're a bit ignorant aren't you - what about people who don't have these cards - children for example, or maybe older people who don't like to use them, bankrupts who can't have a card etc.

I'm not defending the OP (I think he was in the wrong for not buying a ticket, but judging from the rest of the story as told, then I think Arriva are being unreasonable).

Those ticket machines are rubbish, I remember on numerous occasion on a regular commute having to tell ignorant guards that I wasn't being a fare dodger and that my first opportunity to buy was on the train.

My station was a staffed one (just not at 4.30am!)
The ticket machine didn't issue the ticket I wanted, so that wasn't an option, and usually the Permit to Travel machine was broken (and I didn't want to pay cash in any case)

timbo58

tehone wrote: »

You're a bit ignorant aren't you -

Those ticket machines are rubbish, I remember on numerous occasion on a regular commute having to tell ignorant guards that I wasn't being a fare dodger and that my first opportunity to buy was on the train.

snipped for brevity.

sounds like everyone's ignorant expect for you?

timbo58

Originally Posted by timbo58
IF the machine is checked and found it DIDN'T accept payments by an advertised means then this is permissible to allow for.
-I am not sure what you mean; can you clarify?

I mean if the machine is not accepting payments via a method it was supposed to then this will not be counted as an opportunity to pay.

The guard can easily verify if he was/was not able to offer a ticket purchasing service to all on that train, whilst you are correct I am unfamiliar with ATW loadings and stock/stopping patterns,

: 'the guard didn't come round' is one of the oldest and most feeble excuses used by those caught without a ticket further on the journey I am afraid, it is for the ticketless to go to him/her not the other way round, if they were unable to cope then it is within their own best interests as well as that of the passengers to make sure this is officially noted every single time it happens.