Arriva Fare Evasion

timbo58

esuhl wrote: »

But that doesn't make the slightest bit of difference. He still had the right to pay by cash if he wanted to.

He didn't if it had been advertised that the toc didn't accept that payment type at that station.

Sorry: bit it is entirely up to the TOC (as with a shop) whether they accept a particular payment type or not.

*of course there may be some legislative reason in the TOCs contract with the Government why they should be obliged to accept another type of payment.

esuhl

timbo58 wrote: »

He didn't if it had been advertised that the toc didn't accept that payment type at that station.

I'm fairly sure that the rail companies specify what payment methods they accept overall, so an individual station can't just "opt out" of accepting cash payments for a rail company.

In any case, it would be a news story worthy of investigation if public transport was only available to those who were creditworthy...

photome

esuhl wrote: »

But that doesn't make the slightest bit of difference. He still had the right to pay by cash if he wanted to.

Why?

Most stores no longer accept cheques, but I bet you think you have a right to pay by cheque

London Transport are considering making their buses cash free but of course if and when they do, you will insist you still have a right to pay cash.

The ticket machine doesnt take cash and (was hopefully advertised as such).

timbo58

esuhl wrote: »

I'm fairly sure that the rail companies specify what payment methods they accept overall, so an individual station can't just "opt out" of accepting cash payments for a rail company.

In any case, it would be a news story worthy of investigation if public transport was only available to those who were creditworthy...

Actually I'd agree: however I meant:

If the station had a booking office that accepted ALL normal payment types and the booking office was closed leaving only a machine which didn't accept cash (for example) then as long as the opening hours and ticket payment provision was advertised correctly then of course the TOC can specify what will be taken by the machine.

i.e. 'cash, debit & credit cards are all accepted at our booking offices during opening hours, outside of these times credit/debit cards only are accepted at our ticket machines'.

The OPs individual case refers to missing an opportunity to pay not once but (more than likely) twice and only then paying when they reached their destination where they had no choice in any case.

IF a case was brought before court in the case of a passenger having travelled, showing willingness to pay and actively seeking out staff to do so, and failed due to only have a payment method the TOC advertises they accept but the machinery provided did not then such a case would fail also and any intelligent prosecutions staff wouldn't even consider it.

I'm not at all sure what you mean by 'credit worthy' since TOCs are not providing services 'on tick' they require payment in advance, the entire point for this thread, no one else would allow you to take goods or services when your payment was declined due to insufficient funds.

WiggyDiggyPoo

timbo58 wrote: »

It is advertised in my region ~(FGW)
It was mainly because switch solo and visa electron were aimed at the student market and therefore had to be checked that a balance was available for use before debit online.

i.e. if the system couldn't check the balance = more than the amount for the ticket it was rejected.

Ah - No Offline Transaction's The last guard I tried to pay on a train showed me his machine which said 'rejected' which confused me as it was payday :cool:

Strange the station ticket machines didn't take it either as you'd have thought they had a way of checking balance even if the one on the train did not, I'm at that station again tomorrow - I wont need a ticket mind but if its quiet I'll ask them about it as again last time I tried there it said 'rejected' as well.

Cheers for info.

timbo58

They really should know this wiggy: it was common knowledge everywhere when I left the railway industry (5 years ago) and I doubt they have bothered to change that.

silverwhistle

Blow me! You're all argueing so much about what company takes what method of payment, what's legal, what isn't acceptable, that you've completely missed what a shambles the situation is looked at on a national level. The customer should know this, the customer should do that but it's different here, you can't do that there. Aaargh!

How come there are so many apologists for the railway companies here? Why compare cheques with cash. There is the concept of legal tender.

I've just come back from 7 years abroad and have used the train, and a good service it was too, for where I wanted to go. But the prices and complexity of the ticketing, and now the payment, doesn't make it a very spontaneous choice to use public transport. No wonder people jump in their cars.

Anyway, I'll leave you with my story of ticketless travel..

Last Mayday I was at a local festival abroad and got dropped off at a little station to find me way home. I'd only taken cash out to avoid losing cards and the machine didn't take cash. As the train pulled in I gestured to the guard in the next carriage that I needed a ticket, and got on. I sat there and the guard passed several times, with me looking expectantly at him and clutching my money. Eventually nearing my destination he passed again and answered my raised eyebrows. "1st May, It's the worker's holiday!' smiled and moved on. "I'll go and drink your health then!" I grinned, and meandering home from the station spent my saved fare and did so.:-)

esuhl

photome wrote: »

Why?

Most stores no longer accept cheques, but I bet you think you have a right to pay by cheque

London Transport are considering making their buses cash free but of course if and when they do, you will insist you still have a right to pay cash.

The ticket machine doesnt take cash and (was hopefully advertised as such).

I've already explained that (I believe) the conditions of carriage state that cash is accepted. An individual station can't opt out of accepting cash fares.

I suppose you think that a ticket offices could just put up a sign that says, "Today all payments must be made in cups of tea", and then ban anyone from the station when they are found to be carrying useless cash and not a drop of tea! :rotfl:

timbo58 wrote: »

Actually I'd agree: however I meant:

If the station had a booking office that accepted ALL normal payment types and the booking office was closed leaving only a machine which didn't accept cash (for example) then as long as the opening hours and ticket payment provision was advertised correctly then of course the TOC can specify what will be taken by the machine.

i.e. 'cash, debit & credit cards are all accepted at our booking offices during opening hours, outside of these times credit/debit cards only are accepted at our ticket machines'.

Sure. The ticket office may not have accepted cash outside of "opening hours". They can quite legitimately refuse to sell him a ticket... but they can't stop him from catching a train with the intention of paying for his ticket in cash. If the ticket office won't take cash, then the passenger can keep it until the opportunity to purchase a ticket presents itself.

They cannot only provide services to those who can obtain credit.

timbo58 wrote: »

The OPs individual case refers to missing an opportunity to pay not once but (more than likely) twice and only then paying when they reached their destination where they had no choice in any case.

Absolutely -- if the passenger did not purchase a ticket using their desired payment method at the earliest reasonable opportunity, then they were evading the fare. If the passenger had cash and "intended" to pay using that cash, then, even if they had a valid credit/debit card, the ticket office could not refuse to accept cash and insist on a particular payment method.

timbo58 wrote: »

I'm not at all sure what you mean by 'credit worthy' since TOCs are not providing services 'on tick' they require payment in advance, the entire point for this thread, no one else would allow you to take goods or services when your payment was declined due to insufficient funds.

Well... they do provide the services "on tick", don't they? If all they take is your credit card number, no money changes hands at the point of sale. They're providing the services "on tick" on the basis that they can claim them from your bank later.

But anyway, what I meant was that credit cards (and the kind of debit cards that ticket offices accept) can only be obtained by someone who is creditworthy.

The only payment cards that do not permit credit (as far as I'm aware) are ones like Electron, which are not accepted by ticket offices.

Stigy

esuhl wrote: »

What's that got to do with anything? We're talking about train tickets here -- not settling court debts.

I was directly replying to your unrealistic comment about a Ticket Machine only accepting pennies and having to use 15,000 of them for your £150 train ticket to the other side of the country. I was pointing out that as more than 20p in copper isn't classed as legal tender, it would not be possible or realistic for a TOC to demand you pay a train fare in copper, regardless of the amount. That would never happen and therefore isn't a reasonable point or comparison to the OPs case, to raise in this case.

From re-reading Post 1, it would appear that the TVM is a card only TVM, and wasn't merely faulty by only accepting card payments (a lot of TOCs only have these now as they're less vulnerable to break-in). That being the case, the company are quite within their rights here. Is it reasonable for their staff to not use a bit more discretion in such situations? Maybe. At the end of the day, the OP's friend was in breach of Byelaw 18 by not buying a ticket before boarding, assuming the Ticket Machine was in full working order etc and Byelaw 18(3) doesn't come in to play.

geordie_taxi

Stigy wrote: »

At the end of the day, the OP's friend was in breach of Byelaw 18 by not buying a ticket before boarding.

I luv the draconian rules these train companies have to extort monies out of people.

It's about time all these byelaws and railway acts were brought into the 21st century to be fairer to the consumer but alas that would affect shareholders' profits.

and yes I have wrote to my MP, his answer wasn't helpful.