Neighbours from Hell

rozmister

coolcait wrote: »

To re-iterate:







I've acknowledged that the OP's reason for posting is about concern for her own wellbeing, rather than the child's wellbeing.

However, on the information given, how can any of us be sure that the child is being properly cared for? Any more than we can be sure that he isn't being properly cared for. Yet most people have assumed the latter.

Leave aside the OP, and what she has said and how she has said it.

The overwhelming message on this thread is that the noises made by the child next door are 'normal'. They may be. None of us can say for sure that they are.

Alongside that overwhelming message is the one which runs 'how dare you complain about/report the family because of these noises'. That message is coming from the letting agent (no vested interest there), and from many messages on this thread.

Sometimes abuse comes to light because people say "I think there's abuse going on here". Sometimes it comes to light because people say "I can't cope with the goings on next door".

If the OP's complaints about the noise are as unfounded as so many posters are making out, then why not put it to an official complaint?

Even if the complaint is based on the complainant's own selfishness (as suggested by the responses to this thread) it offers the opportunity for investigation into the reasons for the noise.

If, as this thread suggests, the family will not be penalised for involuntary noises from a well-cared-for child, why not put that to the test with a complaint?

The OP has already made a complaint to the letting agent and the local police. The police will have attended the neighbour's property as standard course in a complaint like this and if there were signs of neglect they have an obligation to contact Social Services - which they may have done we don't know. To encourage the OP to continue to contact other agencies just in case the child is being abused, even though they don't seem particularly concerned they are, is encouraging harassment. It's all multi agency for things like this now and if the multi agency approach isn't working, as it didn't in the Daniel Pelka case, then it probably won't matter how many times you tell people because the system is truly broken down anyway.

I've personally called out the police before when I've been concerned for one of my neighbours welfare and I would encourage anyone who feels PRETTY SURE there COULD be someone at risk in a property to contact the police or social services. But in this case the police will have already attended the property in question so there is no need to call social services as well unless there are new incidents since the police attended that leads the OP to believe the child is at risk.

Nicki - the !!!!! man is a crazy story but at least his son probably had access to things most parents of disabled children dream of having. Care whenever desired (can privately fund), sensory room, up to date accessible transport, etc. From my limited experience of the system there's no option other than living in the community and it's very hard to get the necessary support to make that work as well as it could unless you're a millionaire!

rozmister

coolcait wrote: »

The OP has given us very little information at all.

Yet, on the basis of the information provided, there is a very strong groundswell of opinion that the child's noises are 'normal'.

We simply don't know that one way or the other.

From what the OP has written, she has only heard the child. She is no better placed than anyone else on this thread to say whether or not there are physical signs of neglect.

From the child protection point of view, why would it be a bad thing if she reported the noises she's hearing - even if she does so for selfish reasons?

Because it causes distress for the parents of that child who may well already be struggling? Because, as I previously mentioned, the police will have already attended the home to deal with the OP's complaint and more than likely seen the child? Because Social Services must attend every single call they receive, rightly so, and only have a limited amount of funds and staffing to do this - calling them out to double check on a household the police will have already visited based on little if any sign of abuse or neglect diverts resources away from the children who are definitely neglected?

It's really admirable that you care so much about children and safeguarding them but I don't think in this case encouraging the OP to call Social Services to check on their neighbour's disabled seven year old son is the right thing to do.

coolcait

Nicki wrote: »

Because of the stress to the family who will be faced with a SS investigation and the threat of an eviction when there is no evidence of any kind that the child is being ill treated or even a genuine suspicion on OP's part?

Why don't I just ask SS to pop round and check up on MY next door neighbours kids? I have no reason to believe they aren't well looked after but better safe than sound eh?

If you haven't seen or heard anything which suggests that they may not be well looked after, then you have no reason to report anything.

If you have seen or heard something which - to you - is worrying and/or distressing, then why wouldn't you report it?

If - as so many posters have said - the child's noises are consistent with his diagnosis (which is unknown to this thread) then that should come out in any investigation.

I'm not comfortable with the idea that no one should ever report anything which they find worrying or distressing.

If the result is 'yeah, I appreciate that you find it distressing, but the child's fine', then that's a result for everyone.

If the result is 'OK I know you reported it for selfish reasons, but you actually had a point' then that's a result for the child.

No-one on this thread - and that includes the OP - has the slightest idea as to this child's situation. Glib analyses of 'it's normal' are no better than the OP's position, in my view.

Posts which berate any suggeston of reporting the facts to the proper authorities do no one any good either. IMO.

poet123

coolcait wrote: »

The OP has given us very little information at all.

Yet, on the basis of the information provided, there is a very strong groundswell of opinion that the child's noises are 'normal'.

We simply don't know that one way or the other.

From what the OP has written, she has only heard the child. She is no better placed than anyone else on this thread to say whether or not there are physical signs of neglect.

From the child protection point of view, why would it be a bad thing if she reported the noises she's hearing - even if she does so for selfish reasons?

Surely at this point the OP has very little reason to make such a complaint? She stated the child had a gazebo in the garden to play in so he would be able to be seen by the OP from her balcony. If she was really concerned (something which imo has not even entered her head) she would be better advised by you and all of us to get closer to the family rather than alienate them, by doing that she could judge their care of the child.

Tbh, giving her that idea on a thread where she has not even mentioned that anything untoward could be going on is not wise imo. Firstly, she could spark real issues for the family and secondly if they were the vindictive type (or have friends who are) she could be placing herself in danger.

Nicki

Coolcait the OP has described the sounds this child makes as being animal like and like a predatory animal. Have you ever heard a distressed child make sounds of this nature?

The reason why a number of us believe this to be normal is because the OP has said the child is "handicapped" which strongly implies a visible disability and because those of us with non verbal children with disabilities are very familiar with the grunts, squeals, clicks and shrieks which are symptomatic of a range of disabilities and which yes could be described by someone unkind as sounding like an animal.

If the OP had posted that the child was calling out words she could not understand we would have guessed that English was not his native language not assumed he was speaking in tongues. So if we are told he is disabled and is making noises which we know disabled children make, then we assume unless there is ANY evidence of any wrongdoing that he is vocalising reflexively not trying to communicate ill treatment.

rozmister

coolcait wrote: »

If you haven't seen or heard anything which suggests that they may not be well looked after, then you have no reason to report anything.

If you have seen or heard something which - to you - is worrying and/or distressing, then why wouldn't you report it?

If - as so many posters have said - the child's noises are consistent with his diagnosis (which is unknown to this thread) then that should come out in any investigation.

I'm not comfortable with the idea that no one should ever report anything which they find worrying or distressing.

If the result is 'yeah, I appreciate that you find it distressing, but the child's fine', then that's a result for everyone.

If the result is 'OK I know you reported it for selfish reasons, but you actually had a point' then that's a result for the child.

No-one on this thread - and that includes the OP - has the slightest idea as to this child's situation. Glib analyses of 'it's normal' are no better than the OP's position, in my view.

Posts which berate any suggeston of reporting the facts to the proper authorities do no one any good either. IMO.

I find my neighbour's 16/17 year old son shouting obscenities that include comments about raping people's mothers into his playstation at 3am very distressing but I won't be contacting social services about it. The distress is my personal feeling not his (although he does sound like a very angry young man) and from the OP's post the only distress is theirs. They never state that they believe the child is in pain or injured or unhappy just that the noise sounds like an animal to give us an understanding of what kind of noise it is.

The OP never states they have any child protection worries, it is like you telling me that your nephew is skinny for his age and me telling you to call social services because he could be being starved and it's better safe than sorry. You have projected your own feelings about child protection onto the OPs post and suggested that this child MIGHT be being abused and it is better safe than sorry so it should be reported.

You seem to be ignoring the crucial point that these facts have already been reported to one of the two authorities that deal with child protection - the police. As I've already pointed out the system is a multi-agency one now, the police will flag anything up to social services that indicates neglect or abuse or is suspicious.

coolcait

rozmister wrote: »

Because it causes distress for the parents of that child who may well already be struggling? Because, as I previously mentioned, the police will have already attended the home to deal with the OP's complaint and more than likely seen the child?

Have they? I haven't seen that in any of the posts which remain on the thread. I haven't even seen any mention of a formal complaint at all.

Because Social Services must attend every single call they receive, rightly so, and only have a limited amount of funds and staffing to do this - calling them out to double check on a household the police will have already visited based on little if any sign of abuse or neglect diverts resources away from the children who are definitely neglected?

Where have you seen this scenario on the thread?

It's really admirable that you care so much about children and safeguarding them but I don't think in this case encouraging the OP to call Social Services to check on their neighbour's disabled seven year old son is the right thing to do.

I don't believe that I have encouraged the OP to do any such thing.

Let's reign this in a bit, and stick to what has been posted.

The OP has been told - in frank, open, and sometimes emotional terms - that she should not report the noise issues which she has told us about.

One or two posters have alluded to the fact that the child's parents may not necessarily be taking every measure possible to safeguard the child's wellbeing. We don't know enough to say either way. One or two posters have alluded to the fact that the child's noises may in fact be signs of distress, and an indication of lack of care by the parents.

I took those gentle allusions, and turned them into direct 'what if' questions.

At no point have I suggested reporting the family to social services. I have forwarded the daring idea that the OP could report her concerns about noise to the relevant authorities.

If the relevant authorities find that they are not satisfied with the explanation that the noises are an inherent part of the child's disability, and cannot be managed, then that's another issue.

Loosening the reins again, and going back to the bigger picture..

I don't personally agree with the idea that - where someone has genuine concerns about something - those concerns should not be reported to the relevant authorities because the person should "think of the effect which the report will have on the people you're talking about".

If you have 'genuine concerns' about anything, then I think that those concerns should be reported. It's not that difficult to find real life examples of issues where people didn't report a concern because they were afraid of the 'effect'. And were subsequently pilloried for not reporting.

The above also holds true in cases where I personally don't necessarily agree with the 'genuine concerns' held by another.

Or in cases where someone raises a 'genuine concern' about one thing (e.g. noise) which is unsubstantiated, but the investigation turns up a 'genuine concern' about another thing (e.g. 'neglect'/'abuse' etc)

atrixblue.-MFR-.

i can give rise to what noises he makes, my wife's FIL has a stepson who is severly autistic, he in his 20's only learned to walk when he was 10 but he makes all sorts of noises to imitation fart sounds, to birds chirping, car sounds, claps his hands to his interpretation to dolphins.

he harmless when supervised 24/7 although he has his up days the down days are next to impossible for him to cope outside of home comforts, unless you know how to handle him he'll try and eat your hair, use his strengh to try and stretch you to his size (he's about 6ft 1) because he doesnt understand people grow to all different sizes.

give him a puzzle 500piece, he'll complete it within the hour working his way from inside to the outside, give him his bible a certain highstreet name catalog, and ask him to pick out a set of headphones for less than £9,99 he'll tell you the brands the prices and the catalog numbers and the page number first then open the catalog and show you. he doesnt sleep without medication intervention, he's so strong he's pulled 5ft connifer tree's out his garden with attached roots.

although many conditions can account for noises, i think OP should think how demanding his care can be.

rozmister

coolcait wrote: »

Let's reign this in a bit, and stick to what has been posted.

The OP has been told - in frank, open, and sometimes emotional terms - that she should not report the noise issues which she has told us about.

One or two posters have alluded to the fact that the child's parents may not necessarily be taking every measure possible to safeguard the child's wellbeing. We don't know enough to say either way. One or two posters have alluded to the fact that the child's noises may in fact be signs of distress, and an indication of lack of care by the parents.

I took those gentle allusions, and turned them into direct 'what if' questions.

Those gentle allusions were not at any point made by the OP and so I'm afraid if you are picking up on 'gentle allusions' and turning them into 'what if questions' you are fueling the speculation about a topic no one on here knows anything about and is diverting completely away from what the OP actually had to say.

At no point have I suggested reporting the family to social services. I have forwarded the daring idea that the OP could report her concerns about noise to the relevant authorities.

"From the child protection point of view, why would it be a bad thing if she reported the noises she's hearing - even if she does so for selfish reasons?" - That's a quote from you - who are the relevant authorities when reporting noises from a child protection view if not social services? The police? They're the only two agencies who deal with child protection. If she's just reporting the noises because they irritate her she's already done that.

If the relevant authorities find that they are not satisfied with the explanation that the noises are an inherent part of the child's disability, and cannot be managed, then that's another issue.

Loosening the reins again, and going back to the bigger picture..

I don't personally agree with the idea that - where someone has genuine concerns about something - those concerns should not be reported to the relevant authorities because the person should "think of the effect which the report will have on the people you're talking about".

If you have 'genuine concerns' about anything, then I think that those concerns should be reported. It's not that difficult to find real life examples of issues where people didn't report a concern because they were afraid of the 'effect'. And were subsequently pilloried for not reporting.

The above also holds true in cases where I personally don't necessarily agree with the 'genuine concerns' held by another.

Or in cases where someone raises a 'genuine concern' about one thing (e.g. noise) which is unsubstantiated, but the investigation turns up a 'genuine concern' about another thing (e.g. 'neglect'/'abuse' etc)

"I told the local police about being sworn at as, being a woman here alone, I now feel very vulnerable." - taken from the first post by the OP. The police have been made aware of the swearing and the fact the retired vulnerable OP has been made to feel vulnerable. They will send someone out to her property to speak to her in a case like this as part of the neighbourhood policing even if it is just a PCSO and I'm sure she will have taken the time to tell them about the rest of the noise seeing as she's more than happy to tell a forum full of strangers.

If you take the time to actually read my posts I have already stated that people with GENUINE CONCERNS should report these to the relevant authorities. None have been expressed in this thread by anyone with any knowledge of the situation at any point so discussing contacting the 'relevant authorities' because of the potential safeguarding issues is a moot point.

Nicki

In her very first post OP says she has reported the child's noises to the antisocial behaviour team and also that she made a complaint to the police about the incident in the garden, in addition to the complaint to the letting agents. So reports have already been made to the authorities about the child.

There were some posts earlier which have now been deleted which said that OP should fabricate allegations of abuse, drug dealing and other criminal activities against the family and make repeated reports to SS and the police to help get the family evicted, and there was some discussion which remains on the thread about how this was not the right thing to do. I cannot recall anyone on the thread other than you expressing any concern that the child is being ill treated or anyone saying that even if there is reason to believe this to be so that it should not be reported.

It's just a vile thing to do IMO to report a family for suspicion of abuse when there is no evidence of any kind other than an obvious symptom of a disability. If every person who comes across this family does the same thing they will be under constant suspicion for no reason at all other than that their child makes involuntary noises. What kind of life is that for a parent?