Compensation for delayed flights Discussion Area

luci1838

Hi

I've read through previous discussions and I just want to be sure I've got my understanding of my situation correct.

My flight was due to leave Barbados at 8.30pm on 16/11/11 however, due to "a technical fault" I actually left 17/11/11 at 8.30pm. Now as I had the same flight number I assume this counts as a delay not a cancellation.

As it was a flight that was going to London, even though it originated outside the EU, I also assume that it is subject this judgement that everyone else with delayed flights seems to be waiting on in terms of compensation claims.

Virgin has refused compensation and given me airmiles by way of an apology.

I have asked for Euro600 referring them to the relevant legislation. They referred me to their website which says they are not obligated to give compensation if circumstances are beyond their control and they given the example of technical faults.

I have been told by a legal aid helpline that as I paid by credit card, if Virgin refuses compensation, I can hold my credit company to account. I've not heard/read this anywhere before. Does anyone know if this is possible?

Many Thanks.

tomjonesrules

luci1838 wrote: »

Hi

I've read through previous discussions and I just want to be sure I've got my understanding of my situation correct.

My flight was due to leave Barbados at 8.30pm on 16/11/11 however, due to "a technical fault" I actually left 17/11/11 at 8.30pm. Now as I had the same flight number I assume this counts as a delay not a cancellation.

As it was a flight that was going to London, even though it originated outside the EU, I also assume that it is subject this judgement that everyone else with delayed flights seems to be waiting on in terms of compensation claims.

Virgin has refused compensation and given me airmiles by way of an apology.

I have asked for Euro600 referring them to the relevant legislation. They referred me to their website which says they are not obligated to give compensation if circumstances are beyond their control and they given the example of technical faults.

I have been told by a legal aid helpline that as I paid by credit card, if Virgin refuses compensation, I can hold my credit company to account. I've not heard/read this anywhere before. Does anyone know if this is possible?

Many Thanks.

Would you rather have flown on a faulty plane?

Voyager2002

tomjonesrules wrote: »

Would you rather have flown on a faulty plane?

Not a very helpful response.

Airlines are obliged to maintain their airlines to a sufficiently high standard that technical delays do not occur. That is why the simple fact of "technical problems" is not a defence to this kind of claim.

frankhay

My wife and I were booked to leave 10.05 hours on the 12 December 2011 from Johannesburg to Tel Aviv. Got call about 2200 hours on the 11th that flight had been delayed 11 hours to 2100 hours on 12th. No reason given. The incoming flight from Tel Aviv landed in Johannesburg before the scheduled time of 0800 hours on the 12 December. Am I entitled to compensation for the flight delay?

ian41

frankhay wrote: »

My wife and I were booked to leave 10.05 hours on the 12 December 2011 from Johannesburg to Tel Aviv. Got call about 2200 hours on the 11th that flight had been delayed 11 hours to 2100 hours on 12th. No reason given. The incoming flight from Tel Aviv landed in Johannesburg before the scheduled time of 0800 hours on the 12 December. Am I entitled to compensation for the flight delay?

Unless the flight was with an EU registered airline and was scheduled via an EU country, the simple answer is no.

ian41

luci1838 wrote: »

Hi

I've read through previous discussions and I just want to be sure I've got my understanding of my situation correct.

My flight was due to leave Barbados at 8.30pm on 16/11/11 however, due to "a technical fault" I actually left 17/11/11 at 8.30pm. Now as I had the same flight number I assume this counts as a delay not a cancellation.

As it was a flight that was going to London, even though it originated outside the EU, I also assume that it is subject this judgement that everyone else with delayed flights seems to be waiting on in terms of compensation claims.

Virgin has refused compensation and given me airmiles by way of an apology.

I have asked for Euro600 referring them to the relevant legislation. They referred me to their website which says they are not obligated to give compensation if circumstances are beyond their control and they given the example of technical faults.

I have been told by a legal aid helpline that as I paid by credit card, if Virgin refuses compensation, I can hold my credit company to account. I've not heard/read this anywhere before. Does anyone know if this is possible?

Many Thanks.

Short of time at the moment but if you check Virgin's flight schedules at www.flightstats.co.uk perhaps they had a daily scheduled flight on both 16 and 17 November (Wed and Thurs). Check also the week before and after. It could be that Virgin cancelled the flight on 16 November rather than delayed it - if so the legal stay would not apply to you. It would also account for the same time/flight number the next day. (The simplest calculation is to add up the number of scheduled and actual flights that week by Virgin from Barbados to London - if 5 were scheduled and 4 took place, then it is in all probability a cancellation).

Both cancellations and long delays are subject to the airline claiming (and proving) a defence of extraordinary circumstances.

You were entitled to EC Reg 261/2004 Art 9 expenses. Did Virgin provide accommodation/meals for you?

Re CC. As a layman, I have not heard of a CC company paying out compensation. If the compensation is due (and ultimately only a District Judge in a County Court determines this one way or another if the airline does not "volunteer" to pay) then there would be a debt. At that point, Virgin would meet their legal obligations to you - of that I am 100% certain - unless they were insolvent. So that might explain why I have not heard of CC cos paying out compensation. But I could be wrong and if a CC agreed to pay, it would only do so (I suspect) if there was a proven obligation for Virgin to pay. You are not at that point yet.

So suggest you complete the research and then come back to tell us the results.

luci1838

Thanks Ian41, cheers Voyager2000. Virgin put me up in a hotel with adequate refreshments, transfers etc but no offer of 2 phone calls/email/faxes but that's a minor issue.
Virgin had a scheduled flight that left 17/11/11 at 6.30pm, while the flight I was eventually put on was an additional flight for that day, leaving 8.30pm. The flight number for this new flight was VS036b while the flight number on 16/11/11 was VS036. Does this look more like a cancelled flight rather than a delayed flight? Would this mean I can go straight to small claims court (with more hope of a satisfactory resolution) if Virgin refuse to pay compensation?

Eng1ish_Gent

Hi!
I am trying to sort out how to get my costs covered by recent flight cancellations, and would appreciate any insight and input. I have read the relevant articles, but want to check my logic before sending anything to British Airways.

I was due to fly from Edinburgh to London Heathrow with British Airways during the recent storm. I arrived at the airport 6 hours early to get on an earlier flight either to Gatwick or Heathrow, but the Check-In staff refused to change my booking, saying that BA Operations were telling them my flight would be OK. Sure enough my flight to Heathrow was eventually cancelled. BMI and EasyJet did fly (to Birmingham and Bristol respectively) at the time my flight was cancelled. I was moved to a flight at 06:20 the next morning to Gatwick and found a hotel for the night.

I arrived at the airport the next morning at 05:30, only to be told that this second flight was cancelled because they didn’t have a plane. The weather was fine and all other flights on the departure board were departing on time with no problems. I was also informed that there were no seats available on flights to anywhere near London that day. The quickest option left open to me was actually to take a train from Edinburgh to London, finally arriving back at 16:00.

There are a few questions which I am trying to work out the answer to:

Am I entitled to reclaim the cost of the hotel for the night?

Am I entitled to reclaim the cost of the train ticket?

Am I entitled to reclaim the cost of the taxi from the airport to the train station and to/from the hotel?

As I read the rules, I am not entitled to compensation for the original cancellation because it was made due to bad weather (even though other airlines were flying), however, the second flight was cancelled simply because they didn’t want to bring a plane up to Edinburgh that should have been there. Am I entitled to compensation for this second cancellation?

Can I reclaim the cost of half of the ticket – the unused part?

Many thanks for helping me though this admin nightmare!

As a bit of interesting background information, while the storm was raging outside, BA tried to sell me an upgrade to my ticket so I could get on to Gatwick flight that as not cancelled (yet) while flights before it and after it were cancelled. The cost of the upgrade was £230. That Gatwick flight was eventually cancelled at the last minute, and while I decided not to buy an upgrade to my ticket as I did not believe it would fly, many people had bought tickets/upgrades for the flight and were just as stranded as the rest of us, but BA had a few hundred extra pounds in their accounts!

ian41

luci1838 wrote: »

Thanks Ian41, cheers Voyager2000. Virgin put me up in a hotel with adequate refreshments, transfers etc but no offer of 2 phone calls/email/faxes but that's a minor issue.
Virgin had a scheduled flight that left 17/11/11 at 6.30pm, while the flight I was eventually put on was an additional flight for that day, leaving 8.30pm. The flight number for this new flight was VS036b while the flight number on 16/11/11 was VS036. Does this look more like a cancelled flight rather than a delayed flight? Would this mean I can go straight to small claims court (with more hope of a satisfactory resolution) if Virgin refuse to pay compensation?

Re Expenses – I agree with you, just forget the phone calls.

Re Cancellation or delay. I do not have sufficient information from you to determine which it is. In your shoes, I would complete my research – I am sorry but I do not have time to do it for you. I would check Virgin flights from Barbados to London for each day for w/c 6/11, 13/11, and 20/11 (21 days). From this you will see which flights are scheduled each week. If the number of actual flights (incl VS036b on 17/11) in each of the 3 weeks are identical, (and equate to the number scheduled) then your flight VS036b was delayed. If there was one less flight, then we can be reasonably certain that your flight was cancelled.

If the flight is cancelled, it would mean that you could send Virgin a formal LBA (see post # 1192 as an example). In this LBA, you would detail your claim, request them to provide you with the exact reason for the cancellation and give them the opportunity to claim and prove to you a defence of extraordinary circumstances. After giving them time to respond and settle your claim, or if you reject their explanation, you could then take legal action. The court expects that claimants have tried to settle matters first before taking legal action.

If the flight is delayed, you are unable to take legal action in England until we have had the ECJ ruling. However, assuming the ruling is favourable to passengers (as we are expecting), you will need to write to Virgin as detailed in the para above. You could write that letter now – or at least once we know whether the flight was delayed or cancelled.

One final series of questions.
(a) Was this a Virgin Holiday or a flight only booking?
(b) Who did you make this booking with i.e. who took your credit card payment?

I have had a brief look at my previous notes on CC refunds. There is one basic problem. Under EC Reg 261/2004, the operating air carrier (Virgin) is the responsible party and your compensation claim would be against them. Unless you booked with Virgin directly, it is probable that your contract is with a travel agent and they will have taken your credit card payment. In law, these are two separate entities.

If you bought the tickets direct from Virgin, Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1975 requires there to be a breach of contract or misrepresentation. According to an old copy of Financial Ombudsman News (Sept 2003)

“This is straightforward if the customer has paid for goods or services that have not been provided at all. It is not so straightforward, if the claim is that the goods were not of a satisfactory quality, or not as described to the customer. If the dispute boils down to a question of taste, or simply to disappointment with the goods or services bought, then we are unlikely to be satisfied that there has been a breach of contract.”

As Virgin provided you with flights (albeit with a delay), I do not believe that you would have a clear-cut case. Maybe, the person on the legal helpline did not have all the relevant facts – or my interpretation could be wrong. Anyway, that is a long way down the line and can be revisited later if necessary

ian41

Eng1ish_Gent wrote: »

Hi!
I am trying to sort out how to get my costs covered by recent flight cancellations, and would appreciate any insight and input. I have read the relevant articles, but want to check my logic before sending anything to British Airways.

The first flight was cancelled – forget a claim for compensation. However, Arts 8 and 9 of EC Reg 261/2004 still apply.

You should claim for the hotel, taxi to and from the hotel, reasonable food plus two phone calls. Receipts will be expected by the airline (These are your Art 9 expenses).

Following the cancellation, Art 8 requires BA to offer you a choice as follows

Article 8
Right to reimbursement or re-routing

1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall be offered the choice between:

(a) - reimbursement within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), of the full cost of the ticket at the price at which it was bought, for the part or parts of the journey not made, and for the part or parts already made if the flight is no longer serving any purpose in relation to the passenger's original travel plan, together with, when relevant,
- a return flight to the first point of departure, at the earliest opportunity;

(b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity; or

(c) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at a later date at the passenger's convenience, subject to availability of seats.

2. Paragraph 1(a) shall also apply to passengers whose flights form part of a package, except for the right to reimbursement where such right arises under Directive 90/314/EEC.

3. When, in the case where a town, city or region is served by several airports, an operating air carrier offers a passenger a flight to an airport alternative to that for which the booking was made, the operating air carrier shall bear the cost of transferring the passenger from that alternative airport either to that for which the booking was made, or to another close-by destination agreed with the passenger.

You accepted (by default) option 8.1(b) a re-routing at the earliest opportunity rather than a refund of your BA air ticket for the sector EDI/LHR.

BA booked you on the flight the next morning which was cancelled. I believe that you should claim Euro 250 for this on the grounds that BA decided as a commercial decision which flights would operate that morning. (Expect a battle but you should win if you are prepared to fight).

Art 8 applies again. Now it is a question of whether a refund of the EDI/LHR sector is likely to put more money in your pocket than the cost of the train to London, taxi from the airport to Waverley. As BA were not able to offer you a flight that day, I would argue the case either way – depending on which is most beneficial to you. BA could not argue against repaying your train and taxi cost but if you claim this, you cannot claim a refund on your unused flight ticket – it’s an either/or situation.

I always recommend that irrelevant and emotional stuff should be omitted from letters to an airline. However, you should repeat that final para in your letter. It is absolutely disgraceful and may in itself, persuade BA to pay up without further fuss.

If everything is clear, you could prepare a draft letter and post here for comments if you wish. If you have queries, just post back.