Problem with newly bought car

motorguy

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

Yes, but the compression rings also create a seal. If all 4 oil rings were broken, then this could be the cause. But this is very unlikely on a 77k miles engine. And as I said, if in the very unlikely event that the oil rings were all that badly worn, then the compression rings would also be worn, causing compression problems.

How many times am i going to have to repeat myself? It is VERY COMMON on this engine at this age.

I have seen it happen. I have physically had three cars doing exactly this. It is generally caused by the engine having been overheated at some point and the rings losing their tension. It doesnt cause significant compression loss, but does make the car use oil, clog up the plugs and eventually the car will run off a cylinder and throw on the engine management light. EXACTLY as is being described here. Also, the known workaround is to clean / change the plugs regularly and drive on at as its not worth the full engine strip down / rebuild to resolve. EXACTLY the problem that is being described here.

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

When the engine isn't running, most of the oil drains down into the sump, and doesn't sit in the cylinder head.

EXACTLY - hence its very unlikely there would be enough oil in the head to physically clog up the plugs. Which is EXACTLY what the O/P's mechanic saw and EXACTLY what Vauxhall saw.

You've just talked yourself out of your own argument!! :rotfl:

motorguy

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

The first mechanic only diagnosed a problem in one cylinder. So they didn't exactly check it properly.

Depending on what was cleaned when, how many miles the car has done and how closely the plugs were examined, all four may not have been oiled up at the first inspection.

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

The Vauxhall dealer was the only one who diagnosed the problem properly. And didn't conclude anything.

Vauxhall concluded that the ENGINE needed stripped to find the source of the problem in the ENGINE. They didnt mention stripping just the HEAD, or propose changing the VSOS's. They're convinced its in the BLOCK not the HEAD.

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

Not if all they did was take the plugs out. They would have needed to take the rocker cover off to check the valve stem oil seals. So we can only assume that they regarded any level of engine dismantling as more than a basic check.

The original mechanic said and i quote "the garage have been looking at this all day and have ruled out other possibilities"

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

The Vauxhall garage said that they would need to dismantle the engine to find a solution. Removing the rocker cover is partially dismantling the engine.

Oh come on. Catch yourself on. Its a 30 second job.

And out of curiosity, if its so likely to be just the VSOS's, why have they not just said to remove the head and strip it?

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

Why are you saying that the problem IS the oil rings, and that the engine should be condemned? You are the only person who says that there are no possibilities apart from the one that you suggest.

I am saying it is most likely the oil rings based on ALL THE EVIDENCE we have been given from TWO mechanics - one who looked at it all day and ruled out all other possibilities and Vauxhall themselves, who want to strip the ENGINE, NOT the HEAD.

If you want to insist that the O/P gets the valve stem oil seals changed, then that is very much against what they have been TOLD by the TWO mechanics who have actually SEEN the problem.

I can see it now :-

Vauxhall - "we need to strip the engine down to understand what the problem is"

O/P - "no, no, no. You're wrong. The problem is in the head - Its the valve stem oil seals. Some bloke on the internet told me it was"

:rotfl:

motorguy

spacey2012 wrote: »

Yes to be honest it is a bread and butter item on the vauxhall with oil issues, they are renowned for blocked breathers, popping the dipstick up from it's clip is the usual tell tale sign.

Exactly.

You would imagine either the mechanic who spent the day at it OR Vauxhall themselves would have spotted if the dipstick was popping and / or if the filters were blocked.

motorguy

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

:T:T:T
Which is why it's worth trying the cheapest fixes first.

And you dont think the mechanic who spent all day checking the problem OR Vauxhall themselves wouldnt have spotted the dipstick popping OR checked the breathers?

motorguy

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

Why are you saying that the problem IS the oil rings, and that the engine should be condemned? You are the only person who says that there are no possibilities apart from the one that you suggest.

Jamie, answer me this - given Vauxhall have actually had the car, WHY are they not suggesting simply checking / stripping the head? WHY are they - as the experts - convinced it needs the whole ENGINE stripped?

Is this because -

(a) removing the rocker cover is, by your definition, "stripping the engine"?

or

(b) because they are convince - like the O/P's mechanic that the problem is not in the head?

motorguy

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

the OP's mechanic didn't even diagnose that the problem was in all four cylinders. So they can be discounted.

Rest assured, hes made a better stab at it than some bloke on the internet who hasnt seen the car whos convinced its the valve stem oil seals.

:rotfl:

Retrogamer

motorguy wrote: »

Vauxhall concluded that the ENGINE needed stripped to find the source of the problem in the ENGINE. They didnt mention stripping just the HEAD, or propose changing the VSOS's. They're convinced its in the BLOCK not the HEAD.

I'm not sure how much you know about engines, but the cylinder head and the rocker cover are key parts of an engine. They are not separate entities. Thus to inspect the valves in the cylinder head the engine must be stripped.

motorguy wrote: »

And out of curiosity, if its so likely to be just the VSOS's, why have they not just said to remove the head and strip it?

Because there is a difference to something being more likely and knowing beyond a reasonable doubt what is the fault. From my personal experience with Vauxhall Ecotec engines, it's likely to be the valve stem oil seals AND the valve guides. If it's oil in all 4 bores they usually wear before the piston rings wear, hence more likely to be the fault. Everyone's guessing until it's been confirmed though.

motorguy wrote: »

I am saying it is most likely the oil rings based on ALL THE EVIDENCE we have been given from TWO mechanics - one who looked at it all day and ruled out all other possibilities and Vauxhall themselves, who want to strip the ENGINE, NOT the HEAD.

Can you show me an engine which works without the head, since you seem to be implying they are separate from each other.
A cylinder head coupled with a block = engine.

The opinions (not evidence as you've named it) i've seen is on multiple Vauxhall community forums which i'm a member of. Some members compete in motorsport and as such there are engine builders there as well. Not guys that fit brake pads and clutches, people that regrind camshafts, perform rebores, blueprint engines and balance crankshafts. i.e proper engineers.

The general consensus when an ecotec starts to burn oil it is more likely to be top end related than bottom end related.

motorguy wrote: »

If you want to insist that the O/P gets the valve stem oil seals changed, then that is very much against what they have been TOLD by the TWO mechanics who have actually SEEN the problem.

I can see it now :-

Vauxhall - "we need to strip the engine down to understand what the problem is"

O/P - "no, no, no. You're wrong. The problem is in the head - Its the valve stem oil seals. Some bloke on the internet told me it was"

:rotfl:

If you can replace the valve stem oil seals and guides without removing the head from an engine (i. stripping the engine) then i would be most impressed.

motorguy

Retrogamer wrote: »

I'm not sure how much you know about engines, but the cylinder head and the rocker cover are key parts of an engine. They are not separate entities. Thus to inspect the valves in the cylinder head the engine must be stripped.




Because there is a difference to something being more likely and knowing beyond a reasonable doubt what is the fault. From my personal experience with Vauxhall Ecotec engines, it's likely to be the valve stem oil seals AND the valve guides. If it's oil in all 4 bores they usually wear before the piston rings wear, hence more likely to be the fault. Everyone's guessing until it's been confirmed though.




Can you show me an engine which works without the head, since you seem to be implying they are separate from each other.
A cylinder head coupled with a block = engine.

The opinions (not evidence as you've named it) i've seen is on multiple Vauxhall community forums which i'm a member of. Some members compete in motorsport and as such there are engine builders there as well. Not guys that fit brake pads and clutches, people that regrind camshafts, perform rebores, blueprint engines and balance crankshafts. i.e proper engineers.

The general consensus when an ecotec starts to burn oil it is more likely to be top end related than bottom end related.




If you can replace the valve stem oil seals and guides without removing the head from an engine (i. stripping the engine) then i would be most impressed.

My point was, its a relatively simple engine in job to strip the head off, that doesnt necessitate the engine coming out. Whereas Vauxhall were saying they wanted to strip the engine down which very much suggested they wanted the engine out.

As they are the people who are the experts and have seen the car in question, if you're saying its from the top down, how come Vauxhall want the engine out?

Retrogamer

motorguy wrote: »

My point was, its a relatively simple engine in job to strip the head off, that doesnt necessitate the engine coming out.

Neither does changing the piston rings.

motorguy wrote: »

Whereas Vauxhall were saying they wanted to strip the engine down which very much suggested they wanted the engine out.

That doesn't sound like that to me. It sounds like they were using Layman's terms as not everyone who seeks their advise knows engine technical jargon.

motorguy wrote: »

As they are the people who are the experts and have seen the car in question, if you're saying its from the top down, how come Vauxhall want the engine out?

You're guessing again. How do you know for a fact they want the whole engine out?

motorguy

Right. Last post on the subject.

The O/P's mechanic, having spend the day ruling out other possibilities concluded that the problem was due to a leaking cylinder, NOT coming down through the head. At no point did he say the fix was simply to remove the valve stem oil seals.

Vauxhall have had the car and they have concluded they want to strip the engine down to completely diagnose the problem. At no point did they say that the fix was simply replace the valve stem oil seals.

My personal experience over the last three years motor trader was of having three vauxhalls of circa 2002 / 2003, 1.6 petrols that had exactly the same symptoms. On all three occasions the engines were checked and on all three occasions it was diagnosed to be coming UP through the bores, not down through the head.

Of interest one of the cars - a one retired lady owner 2002 1.6 Auto CD 5 door model with 60K miles and full service history - had previously been overheated due to a burst radiator which necessitated a £700 repair. This involved cleaning, skimming and replacing the valve stem oil seals of the head and fitting a new head gasket. Subsequently the car had totally the same symptoms as the O/P has described and this was diagnosed as being due to the oil rings having lost their elasticity because of overheating and pushing oil up into the bores.

I also know of three other trade men who have experienced exactly the same symptoms on the same engine and now, like myself are very wary of this engine. We all know exactly what the symptoms of valve stem oil seal wear are, and this is different.

The three cars in question i disposed of either to other trade men, priced accordingly or as spares or repair. All three cars were traded in quietly by their previous owners who were no doubt fully aware of the problem.

SO, i concur with what the mechanic saw, and what Vauxhall saw, and i would conclude that the problem is oil coming UP.

Now, for the one or two internet experts who have no experience of this engine and are mis-reading what those who have examined the engine are saying, i am very surprised you can conclude the oil is coming DOWN, but i'll leave you to it at this point - clearly its of more importance to you to win an argument on the internet than evaluate facts from people who know what they're talking about.