Problem with newly bought car

motorguy

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

Each piston will have three or four piston rings. On an engine that has only done 77k miles, all of the rings would be very unlikely to have worn enough to allow that much oil past, otherwise there would be severe compression problems.

If it was just one cylinder, then a broken oil ring would be a possibility, but not on all four. This leaves either valve stem oil seals, or a breather problem.

The carbon build up from an engine that burns oil would be gradual. So this would only need a small amount of leakage.

It doesn't take much oil to cause blue smoke from the exhaust. For the amount of oil you are suggesting, the OP would have noticed the clouds of smoke on acceleration.

Of the three rings that each piston will have, its the oil ring that primarily regulates engine oil consumption.

It is a known common documented problem on this era of Vauxhall 1.6 petrol engine. If you bothered to look through those examples i gave links to, they're ALL to 1.6 petrol Vauxhall engines of either 2002 or 2003.

Also i've physically had the misfortune of having 3 2002 Astras with this very problem, which was diagnosed as coming UP through the bores not DOWN from the valve stems. Also, all three of those cars if driven moderately there was very little smoke if any, only under hard acceleration, or away from traffic lights etc, etc, would you see the problem.

Finally, IF it was valve stem oil seals they would leak down through mostly overnight meaning the car would be very smokey first thing under no revs or acceleration as the engine burns the oil out of the cylinders.

motorguy

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

The Vauxhall dealer only did a basic check, and didn't actually diagnose the problem.

Exactly. Even a basic check would tell you if its the valve stem oil seals or not.

Is the car very smokey first thing in the mornings once started? Does it clear and not really do it again subsequently?

IF there was a reasonable chance it was VSOS's do you not think Vauxhall or the O/P's mechanic would have said 'sure stick a set of them in for the sake of four hours labour'?

One mechanic has said the engine needs replaced (a bit rash for just needing VSOS's?) and the other has said they want to strip the entire engine down to diagnose? (a bit rash for just needing VSOS's?) Coincidence?

spacey2012

I have seen people pay for stem seals only to realise the £4 gauze breather filter was blocked, is it showing undue pressure when you loosen the oil cap when its running

motorguy

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

I haven't, but neither has motorguy, who is saying that it is the oil rings. When the most likely cause is either the valve stem oil seals, or breather problems.

I'm not saying I know best. But it's best to investigate the more obvious, cheaper solutions before writing off the engine.

Based on the diagnosis of the mechanics who have actually looked at the car and the symptoms present, they have already investigated it enough to diagnose whether or not its VSOS's, yet neither has said that replacing them is the solution??

What further investigation could be done than the O/P has done so far? Her own mechanic examined the engine for a day and didnt conclude it needed VSOS's and vauxhall had it and didnt conclude it needed VSOS's.

Vauxhall said it needed stripped down to diagnose the problem - all a bit rash for VSOS's would you not agree?

It bemuses me that after the O/P's own mechanic didnt diagnose VSOS's you were saying the had misdiagnosed it, and now Vauxhall are saying there is no obvious simple solution like replacing the VSOS's and are recommending an engine strip down to get to the bottom of the problem, you're STILL saying 'oh oh oh its the valve stem oil seals!!!'

WHY hasnt anyone who has actually worked on the car concluded that that? ANSWER - because thats not what it is.

WHY are Vauxhall saying the ENGINE needs stripped down if the problem is in the VSOS's in the HEAD. ANSWER - because thats not what it is.

Why why why are the people who have seen the car, examined the symptoms and checked the engine NOT diagnosing VSOS's buy YOU, our resident internet "expert" saying they're wrong and youre right????

motorguy

spacey2012 wrote: »

I have seen people pay for stem seals only to realise the £4 gauze breather filter was blocked, is it showing undue pressure when you loosen the oil cap when its running

This is a simple fundamental check you would expect the O/P's mechanic and / or vauxhall to have done.

spacey2012

motorguy wrote: »

I would have thought the O/P's mechanic and / or vauxhall would have checked this?

Yes to be honest it is a bread and butter item on the vauxhall with oil issues, they are renowned for blocked breathers, popping the dipstick up from it's clip is the usual tell tale sign.

Jamie_Carter

motorguy wrote: »

Of the three rings that each piston will have, its the oil ring that primarily regulates engine oil consumption.

Yes, but the compression rings also create a seal. If all 4 oil rings were broken, then this could be the cause. But this is very unlikely on a 77k miles engine. And as I said, if in the very unlikely event that the oil rings were all that badly worn, then the compression rings would also be worn, causing compression problems.

motorguy wrote: »

Finally, IF it was valve stem oil seals they would leak down through mostly overnight meaning the car would be very smokey first thing under no revs or acceleration as the engine burns the oil out of the cylinders.

When the engine isn't running, most of the oil drains down into the sump, and doesn't sit in the cylinder head.

Jamie_Carter

motorguy wrote: »

Exactly. Even a basic check would tell you if its the valve stem oil seals or not.

It all depends on how basic the check was

motorguy wrote: »

IF there was a reasonable chance it was VSOS's do you not think Vauxhall or the O/P's mechanic would have said 'sure stick a set of them in for the sake of four hours labour'?

One mechanic has said the engine needs replaced (a bit rash for just needing VSOS's?) and the other has said they want to strip the entire engine down to diagnose? (a bit rash for just needing VSOS's?) Coincidence?

To be fair, it was only the Vauxhall dealer who said that there was oil in all four combustion chambers. So I would take what the first mechanic said with a pinch of salt.

Jamie_Carter

spacey2012 wrote: »

I have seen people pay for stem seals only to realise the £4 gauze breather filter was blocked, is it showing undue pressure when you loosen the oil cap when its running

:T:T:T
Which is why it's worth trying the cheapest fixes first.

Jamie_Carter

motorguy wrote: »

Based on the diagnosis of the mechanics who have actually looked at the car and the symptoms present, they have already investigated it enough to diagnose whether or not its VSOS's, yet neither has said that replacing them is the solution??

The first mechanic only diagnosed a problem in one cylinder. So they didn't exactly check it properly.

motorguy wrote: »

What further investigation could be done than the O/P has done so far? Her own mechanic examined the engine for a day and didnt conclude it needed VSOS's and vauxhall had it and didnt conclude it needed VSOS's.

The Vauxhall dealer was the only one who diagnosed the problem properly. And didn't conclude anything.

motorguy wrote: »

Vauxhall said it needed stripped down to diagnose the problem - all a bit rash for VSOS's would you not agree?

Not if all they did was take the plugs out. They would have needed to take the rocker cover off to check the valve stem oil seals. So we can only assume that they regarded any level of engine dismantling as more than a basic check.

motorguy wrote: »

It bemuses me that after the O/P's own mechanic didnt diagnose VSOS's you were saying the had misdiagnosed it, and now Vauxhall are saying there is no obvious simple solution like replacing the VSOS's and are recommending an engine strip down to get to the bottom of the problem, you're STILL saying 'oh oh oh its the valve stem oil seals!!!'

As I said, the OP's mechanic didn't even diagnose that the problem was in all four cylinders. So they can be discounted.

The Vauxhall garage said that they would need to dismantle the engine to find a solution. Removing the rocker cover is partially dismantling the engine.

motorguy wrote: »

WHY hasnt anyone who has actually worked on the car concluded that that? ANSWER - because thats not what it is.

WHY are Vauxhall saying the ENGINE needs stripped down if the problem is in the VSOS's in the HEAD. ANSWER - because thats not what it is.

Why why why are the people who have seen the car, examined the symptoms and checked the engine NOT diagnosing VSOS's buy YOU, our resident internet "expert" saying they're wrong and youre right????

Why are you saying that the problem IS the oil rings, and that the engine should be condemned? You are the only person who says that there are no possibilities apart from the one that you suggest.