The infighting over Europe starts

Graham_Devon

tomterm8 wrote: »

Anyone who's watched europe sees the referendum pattern. It goes like this:

Do you agree to the X treaty? No
Do you agree to the modified X treaty? No.
Do you agree...
... to the xth time modified X treaty which is functionally identical to the first treaty? Yes.

Your referendum will not get what you want.

So basically we shouldn't have a referendum on the EU, because the EU is so undemocratic it will never allow us to vote anything other than to stay in?

That's why you don't want anyone to have their own say?

Only goes to strengthen my feeling towards wanting a referendum.

globalds

tomterm8 wrote: »

We have our say every five years when we elect parliament. Don't see much point in some of the proposals that have been suggested. For example the mandate referendum is dumb. Of couse government should be negotiating hard in europe every day of the week. What a waste of time.

Really, there should be a choice in the general election. We shouldn't have to go to the polls in referendums because politicians won't do their job and stand for what they really believe.

So can you tell me how many people voted for a coalition ?

The people voted and the result was that no overall majority had enough seats to hold power.
I think the politicians should have done the correct thing and asked the public to vote again and rewritten their manifesto's if the public saw nothing that took there fancy.
I am glad that both the Tories and The Liberals are being stuffed as a consequence of the decision to grab power out of vote from a totally demoralised general public....And had Labour done the same ..My feelings would be the same..
Sometimes the voting public can send a message to politicians that they have to go away and come back with something new ...The last election was one of those moments ..Cameron and Clegg saw nothing like that.

Again Cameron is choosing to see an up welling of public opinion as something he can spin to his advantage by making it a present he can maybe consider giving after he gets elected ..I fear he will be seen by many as insulting and unnecessary.

tomterm8

Graham_Devon wrote: »

So basically we shouldn't have a referendum on the EU, because the EU is so undemocratic it will never allow us to vote anything other than to stay in?

That's why you don't want anyone to have their own say?

Only goes to strengthen my feeling towards wanting a referendum.

I want the conservatives to have the strength of their convictions, add it to their manifesto, and do it in 2015 if they are elected. I don't see the need fora series of expensive referendums that are designed to delay democracy interminably.

wotsthat

Graham_Devon wrote: »

I'm asking why you are against a referendum.

I can tell you why I'm against a referendum - it's a waste of time, effort and money. It wouldn't be quite so bad if it was to give the population a say - it's nothing more than an attempt by David Cameron to keep the Eurosceptics quiet for a few more years.

UKIP have p***ed on his fireworks somewhat.

If there is something so bad that DC thinks we should leave he should tell us what it is and what he's going to do about it - I don't know why it's so difficult for there to be some clarity.

Graham_Devon

wotsthat wrote: »

I can tell you why I'm against a referendum - it's a waste of time, effort and money. It wouldn't be quite so bad if it was to give the population a say -

Well you'll be glad to know that's exactly what it does.

What do you think a referendum does?

londonTiger

olly300 wrote: »

Newsnight and Channel 4 news had quite a lot of coverage of the Greek problems late last year.

One story I remember was an Indian professor who was invited to the country was rounded up by the police and beaten up. His colleagues managed to get him out of the police cells.

Then the police were detaining non-White Americans and beating them up. When the US Embassy asked for an explanation the Greek government refused to give it.

In all cases the people involved had their passports on them.

The rest of the news broadcasters weren't interested.

I wonder if 10 years from now we're going to see mass graves in Greece and then we'll hold remembrance for them and scold Greece over it and never let them forget.

There's so serious !!!! going on inside Greece now, it's not just non-whites who are targeted. Journalists from other parts of Europe aren't allowed in there either, because they're anti-Europe right now.

So everyone who is non-Greek is being targeted. Perhaps other white people won't get beaten to a pulp and get their eyes gouged out but nevertheless it's still a very dangerous area for journalists and is inhibiting any reporting.

londonTiger

we're too deep into the EU for a referendum to be any use.

What does the lay person know about EU politics and economy? I'm skeptical of the EU but to be honest I don't know how I'd vote in a referendum

I just want a freeze on the free movement of labour. UK is disadvantages in this respect, English is an international language and practically everyone in Eastern Europe speaks it to an extent.

Migrant workers have two choices go to Uk or got to Germany. They already know English so it's an easy decision for them to come here.

olly300

tomterm8 wrote: »

We joined europe before we had the referendum, and it took place because there was an argument about democratic legitimacy due to the failure of parties to keep manifesto promises.

If the conservatives were to be elected on a manifesto promise to leave the eu there could be no moral or legal reason for them not to keep their promise.

Really, the rest of your post makes little sense. I doubt there is a single policy that the conservatives have carried out which all members of the party agree to.

I was merely pointing out to you for some of us being a member of the EU has work and living advantages. So we won't vote to leave the EU.

Other Tories - councillors, MPs and MEPs - would leave the party if it was added to the Tory manifesto. So the Tory party would split.

In fact most of what the press brings up about Europe isn't actually the EU directly but the Council of Europe and we wouldn't escape it by leaving the EU.

Even when it is an EU institution because we would want to do trade with the EU then we are still stuck with their rules.

One of our biggest problems is the f***king useless civil servants who cannot understand and interpret Europe directives so we win. Other countries can ensure that their companies don't lose out in their home market but we don't blaming it on European regulation.

Another is the Tory MPs who want to leave and currently don't want EU people to get benefits but can't suggest a change in the law to enact it yet they can strip benefits of long term British residents for ideological purposes.

olly300

londonTiger wrote: »

we're too deep into the EU for a referendum to be any use.

What does the lay person know about EU politics and economy? I'm skeptical of the EU but to be honest I don't know how I'd vote in a referendum

I just want a freeze on the free movement of labour. UK is disadvantages in this respect, English is an international language and practically everyone in Eastern Europe speaks it to an extent.

Migrant workers have two choices go to Uk or got to Germany. They already know English so it's an easy decision for them to come here.

Germany shut Polish people out of their job market while the UK didn't. So obviously they were going to come over here.

RJP33

mcfisco wrote: »

I don't think anyone could and - conversely - no one could tell you with any degree of certainty what we could do outside of the EU
The problem the 'out' brigade have is similar to the problem that the pro independence lobby have in Scotland.
How do you manage to get enough people to put their hands up for something so uncertain that could have very serious repercussions if that uncertainly doesn't go the way they were told it should go.
And just like the Scots, any referendum over EU membership will very likely result in people [on the whole] voting to maintain the current situation rather than risk their future on a such big unknown.

It’s interesting, the case for Scottish independence seems like one of those heart-over-head deals but in this case since we've given up most of our sovereignty the EU surely needs to be justified by the pro-EU.

I really struggle with understanding what the EU achieves for the UK which we couldn’t achieve with a free trade deal? I haven’t seen anyone explain this.

Trade will continue (more jobs in the EU depend on the UK than vice versa), we’d save some money and it would effectively allow us to rebalance and concentrate more on the rest of the world since we’d be able to sign our own trade deals again.