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The infighting over Europe starts
Comments
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There are some matters that suit referendums and we have used them several times.
Presumably you would support the potential independence of Scotland to be decided by a parliament?
In the case of devolution, the devolution referendum was in the labour party manifesto.
In the case of scottish independance, the referendum was in the SNP's manifesto.
In the case of eu independance, no party has yet won a mandate at the polls for a referendum.
I think in both the first two cases it was a mistake, but far be it from me to argue with a parliament implementing the settled will of the people.“The ideas of debtor and creditor as to what constitutes a good time never coincide.”
― P.G. Wodehouse, Love Among the Chickens0 -
HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »Simple answer...
We don't govern by referendum in this country.
We have a representative democracy, where we vote for MP's to represent
us.
Simple question then Hamish, why did we have a referendum on our membership in the 70,s?......
Seems to me the politicians and you would be happy to have a referendum if the outcome suited them.
We give our votes to an MP to represent us , its not down to them to think they know what is best for us.If you think an MP voting against the wishes of the vast majority of the electorate is democracy then we have a democracy in name only.
You would make a typical MP Hamish, thinking you know whats best for us all....0 -
leveller2911 wrote: ». Seems to me the politicians and you would be happy to have a referendum if the outcome suited them.
Given how blindingly obvious it is that we'd stay in after the economic facts and risks of leaving were fully explained to the masses, a referendum is just a massive waste of time and money.
Having said that, given how blindingly obvious it is that we'd stay in after the economic facts and risks of leaving were fully explained to the masses, I'm almost at the point of saying the hell with it. Have your referendum.
Because at least that would get this nonsense out of the way for another few decades and let the grown ups get on with tackling real policy issues.
“The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie – deliberate, contrived, and dishonest – but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.
Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.”
-- President John F. Kennedy”0 -
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HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »Simple answer...
We don't govern by referendum in this country.
We have a representative democracy, where we vote for MP's to represent us.
Hold a vote tomorrow in parliament if you wish.
Otherwise if we all want to vote on Europe membership we can do so at the next election, by voting for a party promising to stay in or out of Europe.
This doesn't really answer my question.
I'm asking why you are against a referendum.
Your answer is "we don't govern by refendums, therefore we shouldn't have one". Not much of an answer really. Theres nothing to say things cannot change.
You are against the independance of Scotland. It seems you would be all for the SNP simply passing independance, as they know best and you have elected them?
Why won't you answer the question? Why are YOU against people having their say in a referendum?0 -
Graham_Devon wrote: »To elect a party yes.
If they won't give us a say via a referendum on the EU, voting for a party doesn't give us a say on the EU.
Bear in mind, none of the main 3 parties want a referendum.
Why is a referendum better than the conservatives changing their manifesto to read:
X. If elected we will start negotiations to leave the european union.“The ideas of debtor and creditor as to what constitutes a good time never coincide.”
― P.G. Wodehouse, Love Among the Chickens0 -
Why is a referendum better than the conservatives changing their manifesto to read:
X. If elected we will start negotiations to leave the european union.
There was originally a referendum to go into the EEC so we need one to leave.
It would stop people like me who work in Europe, and others I know who have parents living in Europe complaining that their voice wasn't heard.
Also I know Tory officials who want to stay in the EU.I'm not cynical I'm realistic
(If a link I give opens pop ups I won't know I don't use windows)0 -
There was originally a referendum to go into the EEC so we need one to leave.
It would stop people like me who work in Europe, and others I know who have parents living in Europe complaining that their voice wasn't heard.
Also I know Tory officials who want to stay in the EU.
We joined europe before we had the referendum, and it took place because there was an argument about democratic legitimacy due to the failure of parties to keep manifesto promises.
If the conservatives were to be elected on a manifesto promise to leave the eu there could be no moral or legal reason for them not to keep their promise.
Really, the rest of your post makes little sense. I doubt there is a single policy that the conservatives have carried out which all members of the party agree to.“The ideas of debtor and creditor as to what constitutes a good time never coincide.”
― P.G. Wodehouse, Love Among the Chickens0 -
Why is a referendum better than the conservatives changing their manifesto to read:
X. If elected we will start negotiations to leave the european union.
Well, how many parties have said the said thing?
We want one now....not "maybe" next parliament. Maybe I would like a refensum, but do not wish to vote for the conservatives? What about labour supporters who want a referendum? Do they have to switch the vote from the party they would like to govern?
Why are you so against one?0 -
Graham_Devon wrote: »Well, how many parties have said the said thing?
We want one now....not "maybe" next parliament.
Why are you so against one?
Anyone who's watched europe sees the referendum pattern. It goes like this:
Do you agree to the X treaty? No
Do you agree to the modified X treaty? No.
Do you agree...
... to the xth time modified X treaty which is functionally identical to the first treaty? Yes.
Your referendum will not get what you want.“The ideas of debtor and creditor as to what constitutes a good time never coincide.”
― P.G. Wodehouse, Love Among the Chickens0
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