Santander trying to steal £14,200 from me

jonesMUFCforever

Azelphur wrote: »

I agree, I did try to get people to stay on topic, I even asked for the mods to step in, but it seems like we're gonna have to go off topic and talk about bitcoins a bit before people get back to the topic at hand.

Well the situation is this - the bank will take as long as it needs to examine the source of funds into your account. There will be no timescales for this despite your complaints to them.

JuicyJesus

Azelphur wrote: »

You're one to talk

At least I don't talk b*llocks.

I've explained Bitcoins potential, and what it solves before, did you forget?

Nope, it's just that that "potential" and its "solutions" are entirely irrelevant to the majority of people in the world who see their currencies as being useful representations of value which they can exchange for goods and services rather than interesting tech demos done with a "because I can" mentality.

Neither does any currency, these features are not part of the currency, they are third party services offered by external businesses, there is no reason that companies couldn't provide these services with Bitcoin, in much the same way they do with any other currency. The only reasons these services don't exist yet is because of Bitcoins immaturity.

And because nobody uses Bitcoin and there is no convincing reason for the vast majority of people to do so.

Depends what situation you're in really, An example scenario is buying computer hardware from abroad cheaply, I do it all the time. I can send someone BTC in exchange for some stuff shipped to me from USA, it's relatively cheap and we avoid paypal fees

Excellent. You can buy a computer with Bitcoin. But, can you directly pay your rent with it? How about a deposit on a house? What about your water bill? Or the massive electricity bill you'll have run up by running your sweet mining rig 24/7? If not, then it is comparatively useless compared to virtually any and all currencies available today because for 99.999999999% of use cases it fails miserably because it isn't accepted and likely never will be. Not to mention, I'd rather pay a couple of quid in PayPal fees and receive buyer protection than deal with bloody BitCoin and receive none, as would the vast majority of people.

You still don't get it. The entire reason sterling, dollars, Euro etc are successful is because of a network effect - their usefulness is proportional to how many people accept and use them. Switching your entire life to Bitcoin is like setting up your own telephone network that's totally incompatible with the old one - sure, it might have lots of nice features and the theory is solid, but you're still not going to be calling anyone. And you've still not provided any solid reason why Mr or Mrs Smith down the road would want to use Bitcoin (assuming they don't want to buy drugs or computers).

Where does bitcoin claim to represent a national currency?!?

It doesn't, that was my typo. I meant to say "replace".

I agree with this to a certain degree, Bitcoin certainly has had it's bubbles caused by media coverage, and the bubble does certainly burst afterwards causing price drops (sometimes very large ones), but it doesn't ever completely go away (much like the tech bubble) and just like even today the tech industry is still a highly profitable area, Bitcoin is too. You just have to be careful and know what you're doing, because otherwise you can be hit by one of those large price drops (I've dodged the bullet a few times personally)

You say that in the past tense, as if you don't think the bubble will pop again. This, frankly, is economic b*llocks. What should happen as more Bitcoins come into the system, as with printing money in general, is inflation, in that the coins are worth less because there are more of them. But that's not happening, is it? There's deflation. The coins are going up in value. So either a) Bitcoin and its fans are in possession of a all new top secret way to make printing money increase a currency's value, in opposition to hundreds of years of economic thought or b) it's a classic example of a bubble being driven by pump and dump get rich quick schemes like yours.

You are also confusing regular fluctuations in the value of something with the catastrophic fall associated with a bubble popping.

I don't think so, Bitcoin has its place, on that basis services like Paypal would be useless, as you can't use them over the counter any more than you can with Bitcoin.

But you don't have to adopt an entirely new currency whose value wildly fluctuates and could collapse at any moment to use PayPal, and once again, for the nineteenth time, there is no compelling reason for the average person to do so.

The volatility will likely continue for a while to come as it's such an infant currency (And there is definitely market manipulation going on) but, assuming Bitcoin continues it's growth in the future, I would say that it will eventually stabilise.

That's a lot of assuming.

Maybe you should do some research before making such statements, there are plenty of very good reasons for moving (at least some) money into Bitcoins, reasons such as being impossible to freeze

I, along with most people, manage not having my money frozen by not being involved with dodgy business areas and fraud.

You can't freeze sterling banknotes either, which renders your comparison pointless.

very difficult to steal (when stored correctly)

I've got these amazing things called "bank accounts" that keep my money safe from theft (including indemnities against theft, so long as I meet their published terms and conditions), has guarantees against losing that money should the bank collapse and provides numerous other services too for no money whatsoever. Meanwhile, lose your wallet.dat file and it's bye bye Bitcoins forever.

Mind you, there are likely to be Bitcoin banks too - although these, should they exist, are almost certainly completely unregulated and thus operating illegally, and should they go under they would likely take everyone's money with them.

Anonymity (Not useful to everyone, but certainly useful to some)

Not useful to most people. Probably useful to some - drug dealers, money launderers, human traffickers... although, again, sterling banknotes are anonymous too.

Ability to transfer money internationally instantly and cheaply

Can't answer this one, but it is a very niche use case that doesn't really justify the significant risks involved in holding Bitcoin.

Combating inflation

See my point above about Bitcoin apparently being some modern miracle.

Yea, I did see this one coming and walk right into it, It's unfortunately rather difficult to do due diligence checks. I'm still very fuzzy on what exactly could be done to prevent this, suggestions welcome!

Tell you what, I will actually help you out here:

• Request identification, proof of address and proof of ownership of the funds being transmitted, such as a recent bank statement, before carrying out large trades for customers or for any new customers - if someone refuses to do so this is a clear sign of criminal activity
• Make good faith, proactive efforts to get regulated and authorised as a money service business so if you suspect criminal dealings you can actually report them to SOCA rather than potentially being culpable and serving jail time
• Adopt extra due diligence procedures for clients from countries or locations with higher risks of money laundering and fraud or for larger trades, such as requesting further information about the source and purpose of funds; also adopt procedures to ensure you are not doing business with sanctioned countries or individuals

All of these are basic common sense things which are undertaken by every legitimate bank or other money service business before undertaking currency deals or other financial transactions. The fact that you cannot think of any of them is probably a clue that this is not a business you should be in.

And I cannot stress the "proactive" bit in the middle of that enough. Don't blab on about this "voucher" b*llocks, approach HMRC yourself and say you want to apply to be a money service business and follow through their procedures, being upfront and honest about what you will be doing.

Although it would not surprise me if you were ideologically opposed to one or two of my ideas (which again are standard throughout the financial sector) or will come up with some special reason why they don't apply to you or to Bitcoin, which again would be a sign that this is not a business for you.

Sorry but you're just showing a lack of understanding here, Generally miners use pools, which means a large group of people will band together in order to normalise the profits, in a decent pool you're generally gonna solve blocks rather quickly and regularly, and earn a fairly uniform amount.

So you've got a lottery syndicate. Once again, random chance does not change with the number of lottery tickets you buy.

Uhh, didn't you just mention above that Bitcoin regularly goes down in price as well as blahblahblah

You missed my sarcasm. Read it again.

Uhh...what? people who invested in shares have all become indescribably blahblahblah

Here too.

I think we all came to the conclusion this scenario is unlikely due to funds being released.

No, we didn't.

So are all currencies, I cannot be responsible for the actions of other people, and do my best to stop people from engaging in these activities (As a bitcoin-otc op, I've kicked many a drug dealer out.)

While kicking someone out of an IRC channel isn't what I would call "stringent policies against criminal activity", fair play. But I feel it's fair to point out that if you go into this business and you do not make good faith efforts to adhere to MSB regulations by being registered, identifying the source and destination of funds, reporting suspected criminal activity to the authorities and undertaking Know Your Customer compliance activities to identify your customers you will be responsible for the actions of other people because you will be aiding and abetting them, and you could serve jail time or incur massive fines.

It never started as a business, it is something that evolved into a business, and as soon as it became one, I opened a business account.

If you're trading for a profit and it makes up most or all of your income, it is a business.

I've admitted it because the bank told me I had done, To the best of my ability I had no way of knowing I was receiving stolen funds, and no way to prevent it.

There are a great many ways to prevent it, some of which I listed above. Again, the fact you could not think of any is very, very worrying and suggests that you either have not tried or don't consider it important.

Being sarcastic is a bad way to put your point across, it just comes off as rude and immature.

Sarcasm may not be nice but I find it hard to not be sarcastic about some of the ludicrous assertions people make about Bitcoin that it is somehow special and works unlike every other commodity in history and that people will switch to it because they like the idea rather than because it has general utility.

Bitcoin has a different feature set to a typically bank account.

You mean "inferior".

Azelphur

@JuiceJesus I'm getting quite fed up with your attitude problems to be honest, you're continually rude, nasty and generally need to learn some manners. Multiple people on this thread have told you as such. I've been polite and explained everything I can to you, and at this point it just seems that you refuse to take my responses on board, and instead iterate over the same points continually, Everything in your previous post we have already touched on, and all of your ideas I have already said I plan to implement, what is the point in posting if all you do is iterate over the same points like a broken record and spout abuse?

Lots of people on this thread seem to fall into the same boat too, of being hostile against me, a guy who is trying to set up a legitimate business and make a life for himself. I wonder if it's jealousy. Who knows, but I think for sure a lot of the people here need to take a good hard look in the mirror and think about what they say before writing it, you don't come off as smart, clever, or witty, you're just coming off as rude, closed minded and unhelpful.

Of course this doesn't apply to everyone in the thread, I've also had some really useful posts that get me steps closer to getting my money back, or at least make me more aware of how the banking system works. So thanks to all the useful posters.

jonesMUFCforever

I read jesus's replies to your post and I think it summarises everything factually.

I still think your account with Santander will be closed and you will not see the stolen money returned to you.

Hominu

I don't know if anyone cares, but I checked out bit coin last year after hearing about and scrapped it as it seemed a lot of hassle for almost no advantage.

A few of the reasons were that almost no one actually wanted to trade in bitcoins, so installing the software and setting it up, creating and securing a digital wallet, backing up this wallet to multiple places, etc.

Secondly, as stated in various sites over the web, bit coin is considered as a high risk asset, so its not recommended to keep bit coins longer than necessary. So you go to your normal bank, withdraw funds, convert to bitcoin, purchase whatever. If you receive bitcoin, you need to transfer them back to a real currency to place into your bank. Some companies will do this for you, but of course this means the same problems with real currency - getting your account frozen, investigated, money laundering checks, etc.

and lets not forget that bitcoin is still experimental. The future is unknown.

So all in all, for me, and a lot of other people it seems, its easier to just pay a little extra and deal in a real currency.

opinions4u

Azelphur wrote: »

@JuiceJesus I'm getting quite fed up with your attitude problems to be honest, you're continually rude, nasty and generally need to learn some manners. Multiple people on this thread have told you as such. I've been polite and explained everything I can to you, and at this point it just seems that you refuse to take my responses on board, and instead iterate over the same points continually, Everything in your previous post we have already touched on, and all of your ideas I have already said I plan to implement, what is the point in posting if all you do is iterate over the same points like a broken record and spout abuse?

Lots of people on this thread seem to fall into the same boat too, of being hostile against me, a guy who is trying to set up a legitimate business and make a life for himself. I wonder if it's jealousy. Who knows, but I think for sure a lot of the people here need to take a good hard look in the mirror and think about what they say before writing it, you don't come off as smart, clever, or witty, you're just coming off as rude, closed minded and unhelpful.

Somebody is pointing out what they perceive to be the flaws in your business plan. In some depth.

You can choose to ignore their view, explain why you disagree with it or take it on board.

Regardless, don't get upset by it.

Azelphur

opinions4u wrote: »

Somebody is pointing out what they perceive to be the flaws in your business plan. In some depth.

You can choose to ignore their view, explain why you disagree with it or take it on board.

Regardless, don't get upset by it.

You arn't listening, We've already touched on every point he made, and I've already explained why I disagree. I take everything everyone says on board, but as I already said, all his post contains is a re-iteration of what has already said bundled with rudeness and abuse.

opinions4u

Azelphur wrote: »

You arn't listening, We've already touched on every point he made, and I've already explained why I disagree. I take everything everyone says on board, but as I already said, all his post contains is a re-iteration of what has already said bundled with rudeness and abuse.

So ignore it then.

JuicyJesus

Azelphur, the fact of the matter is I haven't taken most of the things you've said on board because they are just plain wrong. There has been no abuse other than calling patent horsesh*t out for what it is - horsesh*t, and if you think I should just ignore it when you try and peddle utter rubbish like "Bitcoin is backed by the computers used to make it because you can sell them if the currency crashes" then I'm afraid that will be another point where you are entirely wrong. I think your main issue is that you're not used to being anywhere that isn't a Bitcoin related forum, and the usual pro-Bitcoin talking points won't work because they get quite easily shown up for being economically illiterate b*llocks. It's called cognitive dissonance. Look it up.
You may disagree, but you are still amazingly wrong on any number of points of fact.

Also, by all means start your business. But you need to take on board what I'm saying because these are questions I'm asking when I have absolutely NO money at stake, questions you get from potential customers and your business bankers will be far harsher and more urgent than anything I can throw at you. I would also think long and hard about what I said about due diligence and your legal responsibilities to do it, because that is where you are going to have an extremely hard time of things should push come to shove.

Azelphur

JuicyJesus wrote: »

Azelphur, the fact of the matter is I haven't taken most of the things you've said on board because they are just plain wrong. There has been no abuse other than calling patent horsesh*t out for what it is - horsesh*t, and if you think I should just ignore it when you try and peddle utter rubbish like "Bitcoin is backed by the computers used to make it because you can sell them if the currency crashes" then I'm afraid that will be another point where you are entirely wrong. I think your main issue is that you're not used to being anywhere that isn't a Bitcoin related forum, and the usual pro-Bitcoin talking points won't work because they get quite easily shown up for being economically illiterate b*llocks. It's called cognitive dissonance. Look it up.
You may disagree, but you are still amazingly wrong on any number of points of fact.

Also, by all means start your business. But you need to take on board what I'm saying because these are questions I'm asking when I have absolutely NO money at stake, questions you get from potential customers and your business bankers will be far harsher and more urgent than anything I can throw at you.

I've already had the meeting from the business bankers, I already have the business account, I already got asked all the questions, answered them. Business bankers are reasonable people, you explain things to them and they either agree, or disagree and explain why (rather than state the same point which has been disputed over and over). They also have a tendency to not make assumptions about things they don't understand, in other words business bankers are a sensible bunch.

JuicyJesus wrote: »

I would also think long and hard about what I said about due diligence and your legal responsibilities to do it, because that is where you are going to have an extremely hard time of things should push come to shove.

Yea I agree with this, it's something that's on my mind a lot, and I'm waiting for responses from various people (hmrc, lawyers, etc) on the subject. It's certainly a worrying thing and I do most definitely need to get that sorted.