Parking Fine -Care parking St Georges Island

brilldan

I to have lived at St Georges Island for over a year now and my rental flat includes a parking space.

I today have received a £100 parking ticket for "not displaying a valid parking permit" from Care Parking.

The system is that we have to apply for a permit which lasts for 6 months, i simply forgot to renew it and now have been slapped with this fine.

Would the advice be as usual to just ignore it, would there be any differences with it being a residential car park where we are supposed to comply with this "permit" malarkey?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Coupon-mad

It's not a fine at all and you must not pay it!

Is this the place? Do you rent it from a private landlord or from Dandara the Builders/Owners/Letting Agent? Did they get this mob in?

http://www.manchesterisland.com/assets/x/50085

You can either ignore the fake PCN as long as you don't mind ignoring debt collector letters and are not easily spooked by those sort of threatograms. It's only junk mail but some people don't feel comfortable laughing at these toothless letters like we do! Junk mail doesn't affect your credit rating and clamping/towing is illegal - so your car is safe and it really would only be a case of filing some letters in a drawer marked 'scam'!

Or you can appeal it and then appeal to POPLA and hopefully win. In which case the fake PCN gets cancelled and there will be no threatograms. Even if the decision at POPLA doesn't go your way it's only binding on the PPC, not you, so you can still then revert to ignoring it, safe in the knowledge that the only choice for any PPC would then be to try to win a small claim against you. Almost unheard of - and very defendable.

Have a look at the 'POPLA decisions' thread, top of the parking forum:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163

You will notice that one of the earlier 'lost' appeals when POPLA was being 'tested' if you like, was from someone appealing about 'no permit displayed' in their own residents car park. So learn from what that poster didn't include in their points of appeal and instead, word your challenge more like this one (the POPLA appeal wording she submitted recently is a strong version, shown here):

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=78026

If that thread doesn't display all the replies as normal for a forum, click on the 'options' button top right of the pepipoo thread and change the 'display mode' to 'linear'.

If you are up for the appeal then POPLA option then get some photos of the signs in the car park, and post them here along with a copy of the 'ticket' (front and back please, close-up and readable) as we haven't seen a recent one from Care Parking and we can look for non-compliance with the BPA Code of Practice, for starters.

brilldan

Thank you so much for the quick reply.

Yes that is indeed the place, I rent the apartment through Dandara which includes a marked parking bay.

The property management company Clearwater, who handle all the applications for parking permits I guess have brought Care Parking in to carry out the enforcement.

I was advised by Clearwater to appeal with evidence of my flight info to show I was away when my permit expired but was unsure of "mitigating circumstances" not being accepted and also if appealing was either acknowledging the fine or would be detrimental to the whole appeals process.

I'm not sure I have the guts to ignore such threats, although I am very nearly convinced to do so.

Many thanks again

Dan

Coupon-mad

I would recommend appealing but more by way of a legal challenge, not the begging letter that Clearwater have in mind!

Summat based around this template is what we recommend:

http://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/appeal-letter/

But as the pepipoo last link (NitramA's thread) in my previous reply is similar to your own case, do a hibrid strong appeal using the 'best bits' that you like in both!

It doesn't matter too much about your wording now but we do suggest it should NOT be a begging/mitigating circumstances appeal. No chance with that!

More important will be the wording for POPLA later on. Get that right and it gets cancelled at the PPC's expense. And it's NOT a fine!!

brilldan

Thanks again,

I will get onto it tomorrow.

Will update with how I get on.

Coupon-mad

brilldan wrote: »

Thanks again,

I will get onto it tomorrow.

Will update with how I get on.

Actually just thought to add, if this was a windscreen fake PCN, the best advice I can give is to actually do nothing until they write to the registered keeper. Then do the challenge thing.

As explained here:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4568309

This PPC can get DVLA data so I expect they will write but we tend to say wait and see, because:

1. they may never write (I had one like that once!)

2. If they do, they are likely to miss deadlines and the NTK may not be as it should be worded (should be exactly as per this other Parking Cowboys link):

http://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/keeper-liability/

HTH, so maybe just read a few other recent threads & stuff while you are waiting for Care Parking to start 'digging their own holes' as ammo for your challenge and POPLA appeal in due course.

brilldan

Yes it was just stuck on my windscreen in a yellow envelope!

I will just wait for something in the post then and hopefully it will just go away!

brilldan

Thanks for all your helpful replies, in the mean time I had received a response from a resident of the same apartments as me and his approach was very different saying the same rules do not apply as we subscribe to the permit scheme I have included his response below.

What do you think as this seems to have shaken my confidence slightly.

Many thanks
Dan



As someone who's been involved over the years helping to resolve the issues surrounding parking on SGI, It's by far, not my place to be telling basement parking users what they should or shouldn't be doing. The system has been in place for a long time now, so it's all down to individual choice at the end of the day and so be it.

All I say on this matter, is that the permit system that operates in the basement is completely legal, the development is leasehold tenure and the lease allows for suitable parking control measures to be implemented to reduce/prevent unauthorised access which requires the measures to be observed by the long leaseholders (which I am one) or contracted tenants of property here at SGI. When collecting basement permits from the managing agent, they require you to sign-for the permit which includes a declaration stating (in effect) that the signatory will observe the rules of the system and abide by them. Be particularly wary of this if you're following advice put out on forums like MoneySavingExpert, etc. What we have at SGI is somewhat very different to supermarket car parks!

The permit system is the ONLY practical fair measure available to protect the right of access to the allocated spaces in the basement. Again, I'll make this clear - no one legally OWNS the land, the parking space sits on, the parking spaces are leasehold as are the apartments and so everyone ONLY has the right to occupy the space subject to the terms set out in the lease which cannot be changed. Some residents say it's my space that I've paid for, that's true but there are enforcible conditions of use attached to that very right.

The permit system has been successful for at least the past 5 years alone and remains successful in protecting right of access. What is clear is that this system works for the VAST majority of residents that are authorised to use the basement parking who are prepared to simply abide by the rules. I acknowledge that there have been problems where some residents have been wrongly ticketed by the various ticketing companies that have operated on SGI in the past 5 years where they have not broken any of the rules of the scheme and as far as I know, such wrong doing has been addressed by the managing agents where they have quite rightly had such tickets cancelled. Of course, such abuse committed by ticket companies is never acceptable and has to be stamped on, but it's generally rare at SGI.

The expiry date recorded on the permits, together with vehicles registration numbers were introduced by ClearWater when they started managing SGI at the beginning of 2011. I have pointed out before, that ClearWater use the exactly the same system at Dandara's Spectrum development which they also manage, where permits have expiry dates and authorised vehicle registration numbers on them. These features were something ClearWater insisted on. The Committee objected to expiry dates on permits, but ClearWater insisted that this would prevent the permits from going into general long-term circulation allowing them to be abused, ie. for them to be passed into the wrong hands for future use by anyone who does not have a lawful right to use the basement at SGI.

I understand the frustration some residents may have about the permit system and how some get 'caught out' by some of the rules, but the ticketing companies used do not discriminate against anyone in the basement. If any of the wardens spot a vehicle not parked in the correct bay and/or not displaying a valid basement parking permit, they ticket the vehicle as this is what they should be tasked to do - friendly acknowledgements of who or who not should be parked in a bay is something these companies do not understand as they are motivated by the issuing of tickets like all other parking control wardens. This is how they make their money whether you agree with the system or not. No one is getting 'back handers'. This is simply how it all works. From time to time, some wardens are over zealous and wrongly ticket vehicles where there is no wrong doing done by a resident and it's only right that this gets reported to ClearWater to get them involved immediately to rectify the issue at no cost to the resident because wrong doing could affect any of the innocent basement users.

The rules are simple and cost no one nothing other than taking responsibility for displaying a valid permit. If the rules are abided by, then there is no problem and generally there hasn't been problems for the vast majority of residents at SGI in at least the past 5 years. The system works well as an effective deterrent against unauthorised parking which otherwise would lead to chaos again! I do know that, the nearby developments; Vie Building and CityGate have a chronic problem with unauthorised parking in their basements (they don't have a permit system which is enforced!)

1) If the rules are broken by mistake then, the responsibility lays with the person responsible/vehicle authorised to use the basement parking bay.
2) If the rules are broken intentionally, then so be it, expect no help from those parties involved and please refrain from using this community forum who just wish to attempt to stir up trouble without offering any constructive feedback which the managing agent may be able to use to improve the system!

Some of the latest posts on here allude to advise others to attempt to undermine the system. Indeed, those who do not have a right to park in the basement may indeed read this and try to use the very same tactics suggested here to try and obtain free parking at someone else's expense!

As someone else has said above, the permit system has been argued to death over the years. There really isn't a problem with it, so unless someone can prove that tickets are being issued wrongly in that the system is screwing innocent residents, then I'm done with my involvement in this. As a Committee Member, I've tried to help enough over the years to help harmonise things but there are always going to be some residents who just don't agree with the system and may always want to try and fight it.

I play by the rules and so do the vast majority of others entitled to basement parking bay use, so those that don't want to can do so on their OWN!

I know what I say may come across as a little harsh and some people may not like what I'm saying about all this, but this is my personal view, though probably some of which may be shared by others who use this website.

(Text removed by MSE Forum Team)

Half_way

puts you in a good position more later.

Half_way

to follow up, please post exactly what it says in your lease agreement.


As for the charges, they (the ppc ) can only charge for genuine losses, this permit scheme appears as if it is being used to punish naughty residents who dont obey the rules, however before going much further we need to know what your lease agreement says.

If you want to play by the rules you could enforce your right to a peacful enjoyment of your property without being harrassed by a parking company, and an inept management agency - again need you need to post the details of the lease agreement with regards to parking.

NeverEnough

The arrogant [TEXT REMOVED BY FORUM TEAM] seems a right peacock. So many of these "little men" who seem to reign over their Committee Kingdoms sadly have the same attitudes as he does. I am sure his silly argument can be destroyed legally, but as Half-Way said, please give details of the lease as above, without identifying yourself, although given you have alerted said [TEXT REMOVED BY FORUM TEAM] he is likely watching this forum intently.