'A generation of Muslims not able to go to university?' blog discussion

chriswatts

I don't see a problem with the so called student loan as long as Muslims and the rest of the students realise that this isn't really a loan but a graduate tax in disguise! Most students won't pay back their loan and will pay a proportion of their earnings so what's the difference between that and a graduate tax?

Fire_Fox

Mozette wrote: »

Sorry if I sound nosy, but it's hard to ask without, but I am in my 50s, have been employed for 30 od years, and I'm sure that even now I would not have been able to amass enough money (especially without being able to earn interest) to buy a house.

Are you willing to give a few details of how you manage to buy a house outright, what age you were, what kind of a job you have, because I would really love to know how it is possible for an ordinary (assume you're not from a very wealthy family) person to do that.

What do you spend your income on - rent, household bills, car, socialising, package holidays, childcare? What if you lived with your parents into your thirties, didn't drink, mostly prepared food from scratch for friends and relatives, had holidays where you stayed with relatives overseas? What if you worked very long hours in your own small business and every member of your extended family helped out in that, even the children?

Many Brits are only willing to work nine to six, move out of their parents' home in their late teens/ early twenties, waste money on rent or mortgage interest, trade up to a larger house (more rent/ mortgage, higher bills) every few years, want or expect to live in a 'nice' area, aren't willing to shop in markets nor eat rice and lentils, often live alone or as single parents.


"People with Muslim backgrounds are most concentrated in London (38% of the total UK Muslim population) and other large urban areas, including the West Midlands (14% of the Muslim population), the North West (13%), and Yorkshire and the Humber (12%). Within these areas, Muslims are highly concentrated spatially. Muslims make up 8% of the population of London overall, but 36% of the Tower Hamlets area and 24% of the Newham area population.

Muslims households were the least likely to be homeowners (52%) and are the most likely among all religious groups to be living in accommodation rented from the council or housing association (28%); 4% live rent-free.

32% of Muslim households live in overcrowded accommodation. Average family size for a Muslim family is 3.8, which can contribute to overcrowding. 34% of Muslim households contained more than five people. 63% contained at least one dependent child, and 25% contained three or more dependent children.

Muslim households were also more likely to contain more than one family, with 19% of all multiple family households Muslim.

One-fifth of Muslims were self-employed in 2004."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/london-wikileaks/8304838/UK-MUSLIM-DEMOGRAPHICS-C-RE8-02527.html

seven-day-weekend wrote: »

Most of the meat in UK supermarkets is halal (apart from pork) because apparently those slaughterhouses that prepare meat in this way are cheaper. It is not labelled as such. The only exception is Morrisons, who guarantee that all their fresh meat is non-halal (unless it is clearly labelled as such). Even they can't speak for frozen NZ lamb and meat products though.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315278/Top-supermarkets-secretly-sell-halal-Sainsburys-Tesco-Waitrose-M-S-dont-tell-meat-ritually-slaughtered.html

http://www.morrisons.co.uk/Help-and-information/Useful-information/More-about-our-company-and-policies/

True Halal is about far more than the slaughtering process, how the animal is kept/ treated in life is highly relevant. That article repeatedly refers to "Islamically slaughtered". Even if you trust the Daily Fail as a source (am surprised you linked to it TBH) I have absolutely no idea where you get 'most' from.

My nearest Tesco and Asda both have Halal butchers counters. Chickens look completely different to battery chickens, which I believe is in part down to not pumping them full of growth hormones and antibiotics and other dubious substances.

Figgerty

waqasahmed wrote: »

Ah, you read that bit, but then didn't read the reaction from ordinary Pakistanis? Ordinary Pakistanis for the most part are FOR her education and for education of women.

To be honest most condemnation seemed to come from the west which makes me question what ordinary pakastanis and muslims are doing about it. Are they afraid to stand up to the Taliban and is that why they flourish?

It's been 70 years since it was made, and almost came close to getting it's first woman as president about 1-2 years ago (before she was shot)

I can't remember what this was about unless it was the woman politician from the political dynasty who was assassinated. I think her son is now in line to become president.

The Taliban aren't exactly supported by ordinary Pakistanis. Why would they? The Taliban are killing them.

I don't condone the Taliban, but I can see why people resort to terrorism when they see their family, friends, their whole live shattered to pieces by drone attacks (and they were results of "collateral damage" ), so you have more attacks

Professor Robert Pape explains:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tEsWRXV_BM

At the same time, don't you think it's a coincidence that before the US attacks (ie: Iraq,Pakistan), there are zero suicide bombers, but once they interfere, the number doubles each year?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyUzHt7HSRI

The Taliban seem to see their own people as the enemy alongwith their western enemy. I don't know enough about drone attacks to comment apart from stating that innocent people should not be targeted.

Saudi Arabia is the only Muslim country to not allow churches and the issue with Nigeria is not just Muslims bombing Christians, but there are atrocities on both sides.

Lol at you using SA as an example. SA is a deeply hypocritical country, and no where does it say women can't drive in Islam. This is the only country that doesn't allow women to drive

And Muslims know how hypocritical SA is. SA is to Muslims what the USA is to Europeans. You can't do much about it, apart from rant about them on the internet and just talk about how hypocritical they really are.

Well, realistically he shouldn't have investments in Citi Bank, because it deals in interest - and this is the ONLY relevance that your post has to the thread.

A great many posts have strayed a long way from the topic of the original post. But you don't need to reply to any of my posts if you are troubled by this.

I am certainly learning lots on this Forum. I thought that because Saudi Arabia is a country governed totally under Islamic law that it would be paradise on earth for most muslims. I often wondered why muslims did not emigrate to SA instead of to the 'decadent' western countries where the laws are not in accord with their beliefs. I also thought they would have a much better lifestyle and would not have to worry about things like student loans as education is free for all.

From the documentary on the arab prince I can see the ruling family do not allow their fellow citizens the same freedoms they allow themselves and I'm sure they invest their money where they get the greatest returns regardless of ethics.

PS. What did I do wrong with the quotes?

seven-day-weekend

Fire_Fox wrote: »

What do you spend your income on - rent, household bills, car, socialising, package holidays, childcare? What if you lived with your parents into your thirties, didn't drink, mostly prepared food from scratch for friends and relatives, had holidays where you stayed with relatives overseas? What if you worked very long hours in your own small business and every member of your extended family helped out in that, even the children?

Many Brits are only willing to work nine to six, move out of their parents' home in their late teens/ early twenties, waste money on rent or mortgage interest, trade up to a larger house (more rent/ mortgage, higher bills) every few years, want or expect to live in a 'nice' area, aren't willing to shop in markets nor eat rice and lentils, often live alone or as single parents.


"People with Muslim backgrounds are most concentrated in London (38% of the total UK Muslim population) and other large urban areas, including the West Midlands (14% of the Muslim population), the North West (13%), and Yorkshire and the Humber (12%). Within these areas, Muslims are highly concentrated spatially. Muslims make up 8% of the population of London overall, but 36% of the Tower Hamlets area and 24% of the Newham area population.

Muslims households were the least likely to be homeowners (52%) and are the most likely among all religious groups to be living in accommodation rented from the council or housing association (28%); 4% live rent-free.

32% of Muslim households live in overcrowded accommodation. Average family size for a Muslim family is 3.8, which can contribute to overcrowding. 34% of Muslim households contained more than five people. 63% contained at least one dependent child, and 25% contained three or more dependent children.

Muslim households were also more likely to contain more than one family, with 19% of all multiple family households Muslim.

One-fifth of Muslims were self-employed in 2004."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/london-wikileaks/8304838/UK-MUSLIM-DEMOGRAPHICS-C-RE8-02527.html



True Halal is about far more than the slaughtering process, how the animal is kept/ treated in life is highly relevant. That article repeatedly refers to "Islamically slaughtered". Even if you trust the Daily Fail as a source (am surprised you linked to it TBH) I have absolutely no idea where you get 'most' from.

My nearest Tesco and Asda both have Halal butchers counters. Chickens look completely different to battery chickens, which I believe is in part down to not pumping them full of growth hormones and antibiotics and other dubious substances.

I read about this last year I think it was, not in the Mail, but can't seem to find any that link atm. It said most supermarket meats especially lamb and chicken were slaughtered in this way and had Islamic prayers said over it, the notable exception being Morrisons. The meat was not labelled as halal.

Here is another link from the Telegraph.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/8232188/Unlabelled-halal-meat-sold-to-suit-supermarkets-not-to-placate-Muslims.html

and one from the English Democrat Party (of which I am not a member!):

http://www.englishdemocrats.org.uk/news-headlines/412-supermarkets-secretly-sell-halal-meat.html

I have nothing against halal meat for those who want it, but it should be labelled, as some do NOT want it, either for animal welfare or religious reasons.

dktreesea

There's probably no such thing as halal meat in Britain. It's insufficient to kill the animal in a certain way for it to be halal. The food the animal consumes must not contain any blood, meat and animal protein. The animal has to be herbivorous to be halal. An animal becomes haram if it consumes blood and /or meat or their by-products and animal protein. In Britain animals are fed bone meal which is made from slaughterhouse by products, and includes such items as pig bones and animal blood. Given the winters, where in Britain would it be possible to raise animals fed solely on green grass?

Some muslims claim, as long as it says halal on the package it is permissable for them to eat it. I would say, for animals raised here, and for sure cows or sheep, whoever labels the meat "halal" is a liar.

As for dairy products, milk from animals not fed on a completely herbivore diet is not halal, nor any of its by products.

The only way for a muslim to be sure they have a permissable diet in Britain is to raise their own animals - at least then they can be sure what they eat; good luck in the winter months when there is no grass for them to eat - or have a vegetarian dairy free diet, maybe including some fish.

anon_ymous

Figgerty wrote: »

To be honest most condemnation seemed to come from the west which makes me question what ordinary pakastanis and muslims are doing about it. Are they afraid to stand up to the Taliban and is that why they flourish?

Most condemnation that the media reports. I mean all you have to do is google "Muslims against terrorism" ...

Figgerty wrote: »

I can't remember what this was about unless it was the woman politician from the political dynasty who was assassinated. I think her son is now in line to become president.

Political dynasty lol. She was the ELECTED leader. She wasn't handed the leadership. She was elected.

Figgerty wrote: »

The Taliban seem to see their own people as the enemy alongwith their western enemy. I don't know enough about drone attacks to comment apart from stating that innocent people should not be targeted.

And do you not see why ordinary Pakistanis wouldn't be supporting the Taliban? When their families are at risk from those !!!!!!!s?

Figgerty wrote: »

A great many posts have strayed a long way from the topic of the original post. But you don't need to reply to any of my posts if you are troubled by this.

I am certainly learning lots on this Forum. I thought that because Saudi Arabia is a country governed totally under Islamic law that it would be paradise on earth for most muslims. I often wondered why muslims did not emigrate to SA instead of to the 'decadent' western countries where the laws are not in accord with their beliefs. I also thought they would have a much better lifestyle and would not have to worry about things like student loans as education is free for all.

SA really isn't the ideal country that Muslims look up to. Seriously. I remember a quote from a historian in the 19th/20th century. He said something like "In Europe, they are practising Islam, but they are not Muslims. In Muslim countries, they are Muslims but are not practising Islam" ie: in an ironic way, the European countries were more in line with Islamic principles than the Muslim countries.

Figgerty wrote: »

From the documentary on the arab prince I can see the ruling family do not allow their fellow citizens the same freedoms they allow themselves and I'm sure they invest their money where they get the greatest returns regardless of ethics.

PS. What did I do wrong with the quotes?

Their are many scholars who say that the entire idea of a Muslim king is not allowed, because the Earth belongs to God, in Islam

Fire_Fox

seven-day-weekend wrote: »

I read about this last year I think it was, not in the Mail, but can't seem to find any that link atm. It said most supermarket meats especially lamb and chicken were slaughtered in this way and had Islamic prayers said over it, the notable exception being Morrisons. The meat was not labelled as halal.

Here is another link from the Telegraph.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/8232188/Unlabelled-halal-meat-sold-to-suit-supermarkets-not-to-placate-Muslims.html

and one from the English Democrat Party (of which I am not a member!):

http://www.englishdemocrats.org.uk/news-headlines/412-supermarkets-secretly-sell-halal-meat.html

I have nothing against halal meat for those who want it, but it should be labelled, as some do NOT want it, either for animal welfare or religious reasons.

I can find websites that 'prove' the earth is flat and that the US is being run by shapeshifting aliens, doesn't make it any more true. Did you actually read that 'political' piece? It refers to the same tabloid article you already linked to, so is at least a tertiary 'source'!

And the Torygraph letter (the unsubstantiated opinion of Michael Nicholson from Surrey) links to an article which notes
"Shimon Cohen of Shechita UK, which represents the Jewish community, said the European proposal was "the 21st century equivalent of the yellow star, but on our food".
In a letter to Mr Stevenson, he said: "If you were labelling every other form of slaughter, religious and secular, including stunning methods and incidences of mis-stunning then we would accept that this was a fairer form of labelling. But as your amendment stands, it is discrimination of the most direct kind."

I'd like to see a proper reference not unsubstantiated claims by racist right wing newspapers and racist right wing political parties. You have really disappointed me by falling for this claptrap and making claims you cannot back up.

seven-day-weekend

Fire_Fox wrote: »

I can find websites that 'prove' the earth is flat and that the US is being run by shapeshifting aliens, doesn't make it any more true. Did you actually read that 'political' piece? It refers to the same tabloid article you already linked to, so is at least a tertiary 'source'!

And the Torygraph letter (the unsubstantiated opinion of Michael Nicholson from Surrey) links to an article which notes
"Shimon Cohen of Shechita UK, which represents the Jewish community, said the European proposal was "the 21st century equivalent of the yellow star, but on our food".
In a letter to Mr Stevenson, he said: "If you were labelling every other form of slaughter, religious and secular, including stunning methods and incidences of mis-stunning then we would accept that this was a fairer form of labelling. But as your amendment stands, it is discrimination of the most direct kind."

I'd like to see a proper reference not unsubstantiated claims by racist right wing newspapers and racist right wing political parties. You have really disappointed me by falling for this claptrap and making claims you cannot back up.

You have really disappointed me by referring to a respectable paper such as the Telegraph as racist. Yes, it might be right wing, what is wrong with that, lots of people have right-wing views in this country, they are entitled to have them.

I know little about the English Democrats, as I suspect you don't either, afaik they are the English equivalent of Plaid Cymru or Scottish Nationalists, no-one brands them as racist,so why do it to the English Natiionalists.

So as far as I am concerned,what I have quoted IS from a 'proper' source.

I would just like my food labelled properly, so that I know what I am eating. Halal or Horsemeat,I would like to know,.

jamesd

Figgerty wrote: »

Who allows the Taliban to flourish?

The same general type of people who support terrorism for animal rights, non-Welsh owning homes in Wales, various political views in Northern Ireland and elsewhere: those who want to use terrorism to impose their views on others and provide support, tacit or explicit, for those who carry out the acts.

This is not unique to Islam and it's not a reason to do things that make it harder for children and young adults to get educated.

Fire_Fox

Figgerty wrote: »

I am certainly learning lots on this Forum. I thought that because Saudi Arabia is a country governed totally under Islamic law that it would be paradise on earth for most muslims. I often wondered why muslims did not emigrate to SA instead of to the 'decadent' western countries where the laws are not in accord with their beliefs. I also thought they would have a much better lifestyle and would not have to worry about things like student loans as education is free for all.

I'm still wondering if you are trolling. :think: Probably the same reason why Catholics don't all relocate to Italy or Brazil, and Protestants don't emigrate to Denmark or the US bible belt!