'A generation of Muslims not able to go to university?' blog discussion

whitegoods_engineer

Well I've read some nonsense in my time but I think ML has perhaps had £80 million make his head a bit soft.

I'm sorry but if Muslims believe they cannot go to university because a student loan attracts interest, then the world, and ML has finally gone mad!

I can honestly say that PC has now reached an all new low!

I'm sure that any Muslims so affected by this problem can surely find a suitable university in Saudi Arabia or Iran which will suit.

Can we all please remember that this is Britain, and should anybody wish to be educated here then please conform to the host country rather than expecting the host country to accommodate every whim of the incomers!

Fire_Fox

whitegoods_engineer wrote: »

Well I've read some nonsense in my time but I think ML has perhaps had £80 million make his head a bit soft.

I'm sorry but if Muslims believe they cannot go to university because a student loan attracts interest, then the world, and ML has finally gone mad!

I can honestly say that PC has now reached an all new low!

I'm sure that any Muslims so affected by this problem can surely find a suitable university in Saudi Arabia or Iran which will suit.

Can we all please remember that this is Britain, and should anybody wish to be educated here then please conform to the host country rather than expecting the host country to accommodate every whim of the incomers!

Host country?? Incomers??

Plenty of Muslims are born here, love! You know, birth certificate, passport, PAYE tax code, NI number, on the electoral roll and all that jazz. Have you traced your family tree and had your DNA tested so you are sure you aren't descended from invaders or other immigrants? :rotfl:

Perhaps you'd only be willing to help out the 'incomers' who study the subjects most desirable amongst certain communities: medicine, the law, business, dentistry, pharmacy. You know the sort of professions that tend to mean paying a fair bit of income tax .....

statistic

think certain individuals like IDS, and FF need to be commended for responding, with great patience and manners, the crass xenophobia that has taken hold of this thread.

Fire_Fox

statistic wrote: »

think certain individuals like IDS, and FF need to be commended for responding, with great patience and manners, the crass xenophobia that has taken hold of this thread.

I think sometimes people don't fully realise what they are thinking or saying. My ex had some views that were based more in ignorance than racism, managed to open his eyes a little just by cracking open the BNP website one day. :T

Anyway discussing and debating has me thinking and learning too. It is a shame the English are not more genuinely patriotic/ national pride a la US Americans, Welsh and Scottish - I know it's not all positivity - it is a shame the union flag and concepts like reducing immigration have been hijacked by those with wholly negative agendas.

dktreesea

Fire_Fox wrote: »

I think sometimes people don't fully realise what they are thinking or saying. My ex had some views that were based more in ignorance than racism, managed to open his eyes a little just by cracking open the BNP website one day. :T

Anyway discussing and debating has me thinking and learning too. It is a shame the English are not more genuinely patriotic/ national pride a la US Americans, Welsh and Scottish - I know it's not all positivity - it is a shame the union flag and concepts like reducing immigration have been hijacked by those with wholly negative agendas.

It's a shame some English people think flying their own flag is a symbol of support for the BNP! People don't fly the union jack up here (Scotland) - they fly the Scottish saltire. And it is everywhere. On buildings, used as curtains at the window, around people's shoulders at football and rubgy matches. I'm English, but I sure as hell wouldn't offend the Scots by flying the English flag or the Union Jack.

And yet down south, (e.g. Whitehaven Council, in Cumbria, widely reported in Scotland) English people get told by the council to take down the St George's Cross, in case foreigners get offended? Give me a break!

Fire_Fox

dktreesea wrote: »

It's a shame some English people think flying their own flag is a symbol of support for the BNP! People don't fly the union jack up here (Scotland) - they fly the Scottish saltire. And it is everywhere. On buildings, used as curtains at the window, around people's shoulders at football and rubgy matches. I'm English, but I sure as hell wouldn't offend the Scots by flying the English flag or the Union Jack.

And yet down south, (e.g. Whitehaven Council, in Cumbria, widely reported in Scotland) English people get told by the council to take down the St George's Cross, in case foreigners get offended? Give me a break!

Is it just about foreigners? We have people from a wide variety of ethnic groups born here too!

I don't think anyone says or thinks it definitely IS a symbol of support for racist groups or ideals, but that it can easily be interpreted that way. We haven't had a continuous culture of using the union flag or St George's cross in a patriotic manner outside of sports and royal events for decades now, AFAIK it is still acceptable/ not widely considered potentially racist in those contexts.

The only other way it has been consistently used in recent times IS in by certain organisations or groups, in some cases with the intention of being insulting or threatening or instilling fear or warning off. AFAIK that is not how the Scottish or Welsh flags are generally used, it's usually a positive statement.

I do think it's PC gone mad if the flags are taken down during major sporting or royal events, any idiot can work out why the flags are up if there's a royal wedding or football World Cup. But you are saying you would not offend the Scots by flying a union flag, it's much the same if I were to, say, hang out a huge St George's Cross on the same weekend a festival of South Asian culture or event celebrating Afro-Caribbean music took place at the end of my street. I live slap bang in the middle of a multicultural city centre, this could happen. :eek:

dktreesea

Fire_Fox wrote: »

Is it just about foreigners? We have people from a wide variety of ethnic groups born here too!

I don't think anyone says or thinks it definitely IS a symbol of support for racist groups or ideals, but that it can easily be interpreted that way. We haven't had a continuous culture of using the union flag or St George's cross in a patriotic manner outside of sports and royal events for decades now, AFAIK it is still acceptable/ not widely considered potentially racist in those contexts.

The only other way it has been consistently used in recent times IS in by certain organisations or groups, in some cases with the intention of being insulting or threatening or instilling fear or warning off. AFAIK that is not how the Scottish or Welsh flags are generally used, it's usually a positive statement.

I do think it's PC gone mad if the flags are taken down during major sporting or royal events, any idiot can work out why the flags are up if there's a royal wedding or football World Cup. But you are saying you would not offend the Scots by flying a union flag, it's much the same if I were to, say, hang out a huge St George's Cross on the same weekend a festival of South Asian culture or event celebrating Afro-Caribbean music took place at the end of my street. I live slap bang in the middle of a multicultural city centre, this could happen. :eek:

As an English person, it bothers me to think that flying the English flag could be seen to be meaning one supports racist groups or ideals. That doesn't happen in Wales or Scotland. Why in England?

Why would a festival of South Asian culture taking place in England preclude the flying of the English flag? I ask this because at similar festivals up here, the Saltire is flying proud.

I wouldn't fly the union flag in either Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or England - I think it's an insult to the countries concerned. If it's good enough for Jersey and Guernsey to be sovereign states, then why not for these four?

Fire_Fox

IMO because "We haven't had a continuous culture of using the union flag or St George's cross in a patriotic manner outside of sports and royal events for decades now, AFAIK it is still acceptable/ not widely considered potentially racist in those contexts.

The only other way it has been consistently used in recent times IS in by certain organisations or groups, in some cases with the intention of being insulting or threatening or instilling fear or warning off. "

It's a shame that we English have not held onto patriotism or national pride in a positive manner, it's a shame the English Democrats are nothing like Plaid Cymru or the SNP, it's a shame our flags were hijacked by racist organisations and suchlike.


"St George’s flag is a racist symbol says a quarter of the English

The survey found that while 80 per cent linked the British flag with such feelings, only 61 per cent associated them with English one. By contrast, the Scottish and the Welsh were far more likely to feel pride in their flag – the St Andrew’s Cross and Red Dragon respectively – than the English in theirs.

The survey was carried out by the think tank British Future as part of a report analysing how people from around the UK view their “national identity”. It will be released tomorrow, on St George’s Day. The organisation say the results show that more needs to be done to encourage a sense of “English patriotism” if the Union is to survive ...

The report, This Sceptred Isle, shows that only 61 per cent of the English said they associated the St George’s Cross with pride and patriotism, compared to 84 per cent of Scots and 86 per cent of Welsh, when asked about, respectively, the St Andrew’s Cross and the Red Dragon.

Almost a quarter (24 per cent), of the English said they considered their flag to be racist, compared to 10 per cent of Scots and seven per cent of Welsh, when asked about their own flags.

The report blames the “extreme street hooligans of the English Defence League” for “toxifying” the St George’s Cross, although it says politicians should also take responsibility for failing to “speak up for the inclusive patriotism of the English majority”.

It draws a clear parallel with the situation in Scotland and Wales, where civic leaders have done more to “counter rejectionist or exclusive versions of national identity”.

However, by contrast, the English have far more positive associations with the Union flag with 80 per cent linking it to feelings of pride and patriotism, compared with just over a half of Scots (56 per cent) and just over two thirds (68 per cent) of Welsh."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9217620/St-Georges-flag-is-a-racist-symbol-says-a-quarter-of-the-English.html

seven-day-weekend

Dear Oh Dear. So now we can't fly the English flag in case it is seen as racist by some trendy lefties?

If right-wing fascists have hijacked it, then let's get it back for reasonable people! Don't go belly-up and let the racists win. That's what we English always do and why the Scots, and Welsh nationalists are not thought to be racist, because they are proud of their heritage and don't mind showing it. We (English) are all too ready to throw away our culture, our customs, our laws and even our flag because we must not be thought of as promoting anything to do with our heritage in case it offends someone. (Usually the only people it offends are lefty champagne socialists).

Bring out the St George's flag and fly it with pride, I say, just because it IS the flag of our country and nothing to do with racism.

Fire_Fox

That's right blame the 'lefty champagne socialists'. :rotfl: Where do you think the general public get these ideas? From the racist groups in question which are right wing, extreme right wing or extreme left wing, and the press much of which is right wing. Or are they getting it from The Guardian which is something like the ninth most read newspaper?

If 25% of the English population have been brainwashed so successfully by the 'champagne lefty socialists', Scotland and Wales being left leaning countries anyway, why is it we have a ConDem coalition and the Labour party are (rightly) being eaten alive by press and pundits as being a shambles? Not really logical to blame them is it?

Maybe we could just blame the organisations that hijacked the flags in the first place, and blame ourselves for letting them get away with it. But no, too many English love to blame the 'nanny state' for our own failings. When did you last hear a religious leader speak out about this? How many Church of England places of worship routinely fly our flags?

Shades of Edmund Burke ...