'A generation of Muslims not able to go to university?' blog discussion

Figgerty

lazer wrote: »

Regarding the NI abortion case, the law has not been modified to accommodate religious beliefs - abortion is not (except in exceptional circumstance) legal in NI, the law that made it legal in the rest of the UK was never in place in the NI - it is not applicable to NI.

If you are referring to the recent developments regarding the Marie Stopes clinic recently opened in Belfast and the call for the law to be amended so the the NHS is the only organisation which is allowed to carry out abortions - this is not a change in the law as such, the qualifying criteria for abortion will not change, given how strict the abortion law is here in NI, I think they should only be carried out by (or at least referred by) the NHS, this is to protect doctors and patients so that everyone is assured the law is upheld.

If abortion clinics were to open in NI, they should at least have to have a licence to perform an abortion and the licensing body would have to satisfied that the clinic were aware of and in full compliance with the law.

PS - Many people who are pro-life are not religious at all - morals, ethics and respecting life are not limited to religions.

In the case of the muslim students - I don't believe interest should be charged on any student loans, however I also do not think any plans for this should be changed to suit a religious belief. The muslim community can come up with their own solution to this problem.

Should the government revise every government backed plan to suit all the different religions?

Thanks for clarifying the position on abortion law in NI. I did not know and could not argue the point.

Figgerty

Fire_Fox wrote: »

"When asked why they think of themselves as Christian, the research found that fewer than three in ten (28%) say one of the reasons is that they believe in the teachings of Christianity.

People are much more likely to consider themselves to be Christian because they were christened or baptised into the religion (72%) or because their parents were members of the religion (38%) than because of personal belief.

As many as half (50%) do not think of themselves as religious and less than a third (30%) claim to have strong religious beliefs.

Indeed, many Christian practices, including regular reading of the Bible and prayer outside church services, appear to be unsupported amongst respondents self-identifying as Christian:

• One in six (15%) admits to having never read the Bible outside a church service, with a further one in three (36%) not having done so in the previous three years;

• The majority (60%) have not read any part of the Bible, independently and from choice, for at least a year;

• Around two thirds (64%) were not able to identify Matthew as the first book of the New Testament, when given only four answers to choose from;

• Over a third (37%) have never or almost never prayed outside a church service, with a further 6% saying they pray independently and from choice less than once a year; and

• Only a quarter (26%) say they completely believe in the power of prayer, with one in five (21%) saying they either do not really believe in it or do not believe in it at all.

At the same time, many who self-identify as Christian hold beliefs that some churches would consider to be incompatible with traditional Christian teaching, such as astrology and reincarnation (27% in each case), ghosts (36%) and fate (64%)."
http://old.richarddawkins.net/articles/644941-rdfrs-uk-ipsos-mori-poll-1-how-religious-are-uk-christians

British Christians do not go around shouting about their beliefs, they worship quietly just like many other religions. Also, if they stop following their religion it is not in contravention of any law so they are free to do so if they wish. It is not a capital offence.

I am not going to bandy statistics with you as I am not equipped to do so. I accept that Christians are moving away from their religion and eventually will be a minority religion. By then I hope the Mullahs and the Clerics in charge are tolerant individuals.

Figgerty

ian_duncan_smith wrote: »

I own the house I live in mortgage free, paid for in cash. The house my mum lives in is also mortgage free, paid for in cash. My brother prefers the fast life and has a decent car to maintain his flash image as a successful lawyer. He lives with my mum along with his wife and two kids. He makes pretend that he has a mortgage and sets that money aside. He then lives off the money that he would have left over if he had a mortgage. The "mortgage" proportion of his income builds up until he has enough to buy an investment (non-interest based) such as a house to rent out etc. that keeps his capital safe and generates a further income stream. All of this so that his kids will not need to borrow money to meet their needs. I personally own a 50% share in a freehold reversion on a life tenancy, the tenants are elderly, and by the time my kids are old enough to need their own place it will hopefully have reverted back to me, hence there is already provision for their future housing needs. On top this we will inherit my mums house. Between us we take care of my mum and we take care of our kids, who in turn will take care of us, and even if they don't I still won't need to borrow money and nor will they. Muslims who live according to Sharia Law take care of their elders, as opposed to creating an economic burden on the state by putting them in council funded homes, and nor do we feel the need to kick our kids out onto the street to fend for themselves and claim housing benefit. Hence what you consider to be "obvious" is infact a fallacy. Why not use this money to fund your education I hear you say? Not everyone has the ready cash, you take care of your parents with a view to inheriting their property to so that you won't need to borrow.

I applaud you in your financial acumeny.

I was thirty before I could afford a deposit and mortgage repayments. This was despite starting work before I was sixteen. I had to start work then for family financial reasons. I would love to have had the opportunity of going to university but that was just a dream. I'm sure these young people will find a way of accepting the student loan at the current terms or finding a way around the interest problem.

Fire_Fox

Figgerty wrote: »

Christians do not go around shouting about their beliefs, they worship quietly just like many other religions. Also, if they stop following their religion it is not in contravention of any law so they are free to do so if they wish. It is not a capital offence.

I am not going to bandy statistics with you as I am not equipped to do so. I accept that Christians are moving away from their religion and eventually will be a minority religion. By then I hope the Mullahs and the Clerics in charge are tolerant individuals.

As tolerant as those who use words like 'we' and 'them' and 'other' but refuses to expand? Why will any religious entity be in charge? We have a secular and democratic political system, the head of the Church of England doesn't impose her will.

Bradford West constituency is multicultural, has had a series of Asian ward councillors and MPs yet currently has a white Member of Parliament from a Catholic background and a reputation as a philanderer. 'Gorgeous' George managed a landslide victory over the British Muslim Labour candidate in just a few weeks of campaigning. Perhaps the 'other' community is more open minded and tolerant than you fear?
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/archives/22185

Figgerty

Fire_Fox wrote: »

As tolerant as those who use words like 'we' and 'them' and 'other' but refuses to expand? Why will any religious entity be in charge? We have a secular and democratic political system, the head of the Church of England doesn't impose her will.

Bradford West constituency is multicultural, has had a series of Asian ward councillors and MPs yet currently has a white Member of Parliament from a Catholic background and a reputation as a philanderer. 'Gorgeous' George managed a landslide victory over the British Muslim Labour candidate in just a few weeks of campaigning. Perhaps the 'other' community is more open minded and tolerant than you fear?
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/archives/22185

We only have a secular political system with the current population mix. Many muslim clerics state openly that they want Sharia law in Britain. They may well get their wish in the future when Islam is the dominant religion and those of other persuasions are too apethetic to care.

I didn't know Gorgeous' George had a catholic background. I suppose it was his views and backing of Muslim tyrannical leaders that endeared him to the electorate. The Muslim candidate must have been pleased.

Nada666

statistic wrote: »

Let's replace the words muslims and repeat these sentences for some balance:

"Only half of a generation of Jews are affected by this - the other half have always been banned from education."
[...]
Let's try some racialism here:

"Only half of a generation of Blacks are affected by this - the other half have always been banned from education."
[...]
Nazi Germany anyone?

Godwin, anyone?

It is you who is the racialist (sic). Since when does observance of religion require adherance to idiotic, bigoted, outdated stupid tenets? It is you who is suggesting that Muslims are incapable of intelligent and interpretive theology, not me. Are you genuinely saying that Muslims are too thick to understand the nature of religion? Of course there are still primitivist outbreaks of Jews, evangelical Christians (often black Africans), et al. But many Jews and Christians are free to speak out against the nonsense without fear of murder. Kindly direct me to any Muslim states that are thusly inclusive.

I could just as easily (and cheaply) suggest that not speaking out about (rather than against) Islamophobia reeks of Nazi Germany.

Fire_Fox

Figgerty wrote: »

We only have a secular political system with the current population mix. Many muslim clerics state openly that they want Sharia law in Britain. They may well get their wish in the future when Islam is the dominant religion and those of other persuasions are too apethetic to care.

I didn't know Gorgeous' George had a catholic background. I suppose it was his views and backing of Muslim tyrannical leaders that endeared him to the electorate. The Muslim candidate must have been pleased.

Muslim clerics are the older generation, the younger British born generations are increasingly westernised. Interestingly Galloway spurred many young British Muslims to vote for the first time. I honestly can't imagine the Labour party candidate would have been too pleased to be left with an entire raw omelette on his face.

There will be more race riots before Sharia law is imposed on the UK, white Brits may not bother to vote but I don't believe there would be apathy, your fears are all a bit conspiracy theory. Plenty of senior Christian figures would like to control legislation: to block civil partnerships, gay and transgender marriage, abortions in England for example, yet they have failed to get the Census-Christian 'majority' behind them. Ethnic minorities do not all vote the same way - plenty of Asian businessmen are committed Tories, plenty of working class lean towards Labour.

This series suggests what could be achieved with an open minded and inclusive approach instead of fear-mongering
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/make-bradford-british/articles/home

jamesd

Figgerty wrote: »

Thanks for clarifying the position on abortion law in NI. I did not know and could not argue the point.

You can find more of the history here.

lazer wrote: »

the law has not been modified to accommodate religious beliefs - abortion is not (except in exceptional circumstance) legal in NI, the law that made it legal in the rest of the UK was never in place in the NI - it is not applicable to NI.

Yes, it has been modified to accommodate those beliefs. It was done by getting the change to the law for the rest of the country excluded from Northern Ireland.

It matters not at all whether the change is done by modifying a law before it's passed or after or by getting it not applied somewhere, there is no practical difference: it's a special rule to accommodate one particular set of beliefs. Or in the NI abortion case, sadly, it also impose them on those with different beliefs instead of allowing each person to act according to their own beliefs in this matter.

lazer wrote: »

Should the government revise every government backed plan to suit all the different religions?

Of course! There are some pretty fundamental principles of a religiously tolerant society, it:

1. does not impose a set of religious beliefs on those who do not have that religion.
2. accommodates a broad range of religious beliefs.
3. acts within a broad range of human rights, including those relating to the free practice of religion and opposing discrimination in law or otherwise on the basis of religion.

lazer wrote: »

If you are referring to the recent developments regarding the Marie Stopes clinic recently opened in Belfast

I'm not. I'm simply pointing out that in the UK we already have some pretty major special treatment for certain religious beliefs, with one of the more striking examples being the abortion law in Northern Ireland. That's to counter claims that it's somehow unusual for us to have treatments that accommodate various beliefs. It isn't.

lazer wrote: »

PS - Many people who are pro-life are not religious at all - morals, ethics and respecting life are not limited to religions.

I know. But the focus of this discussion is Sharia law and that's inherently religion-based.

seven-day-weekend

Figgerty wrote: »

We are along way from student loans. Abortion is either legal or illegal in NI, I don't know as I have never lived there nor been interested in abortion. Either way you accept it, break the law or go to a country where the laws suit you.

How do those living by sharia law finance their houses and cars. They obviously borrow the money somehow and not without paying over and above the amount borrowed and taking inflation into account. The students need to discuss this dilemma with their clerics and reach a compromise or perhaps get the muslim rich men and women to provide loans under acceptable terms and conditions.

AFAIK, they borrow all the amount upfront. So what would be the interest paid in the usual manner is all added on at the beginning and they borrow the full amount and then pay it back interest free, from Islam-friendly lenders.

So if (to keep figures simple), your £100k house would cost £200k over the 25-year term with interest payments, they borrow the £200k at the start instead of the £100k and pay that back without interest.

It's not borrowing money that is the problem, it is borrowing and paying back with interest.

If I have not understood the procedure correctly, then I apologise.

Mozette

ian_duncan_smith wrote: »

I own the house I live in mortgage free, paid for in cash. The house my mum lives in is also mortgage free, paid for in cash. .

Sorry if I sound nosy, but it's hard to ask without, but I am in my 50s, have been employed for 30 od years, and I'm sure that even now I would not have been able to amass enough money (especially without being able to earn interest) to buy a house.

Are you willing to give a few details of how you manage to buy a house outright, what age you were, what kind of a job you have, because I would really love to know how it is possible for an ordinary (assume you're not from a very wealthy family) person to do that.