Say No to 0870!

payless

Daveboy- whilst I agree with your thoughts about this countries wealth and it being such a small amount involved in making the call - is worst that some company maybe  making money out of providing this 0870 number

Of course I don't know if they are or not - can't see any mention of the (upto 4p per min) being added to donation

MarkyMarkD

If the phone service has been set up by DEC then it's fairly unlikely that they are NOT getting their share of the call revenues.

But the remainder (as usual) will probably be kept by the call operator/network operator.

I shouldn't jump to conclusions though - the money is often paid over by those companies in these circs.

You can also pay money free of charge at the Post Office, A&L branches and (I think) Nationwide branches. Probably most of the other banks are also doing this.

DonnyDave

...Yet the UK has people moaning about the cost of a phone call. ...

It's what happens to the revenue, not what the call costs.

weatherwax_2

It's what happens to the revenue, not what the call costs.

Exactly.

Daveboy - *prat*

payless

surprised BT did not set up a 0800 number
and cover all the costs

Walletwatch

With regard to the Tsunami appeal and the 0870 number - I cannot believe the nerve of some people.

Complaining about a few measly pence to donate money to millions of desperate people.

This disaster should have struck the UK and wiped some of the thoughtless morons out. 120,000 people dead who compared to most of the world had little.

Yet the UK has people moaning about the cost of a phone call. I am in utter disbelief.

If you send a cheque, you need to put a stamp on the envelope. That's 28p or 20p. If you donate online you have to switch your computer on which uses electricity.

Get a grip on reality complainers. We live in one of the wealthiest countries in the world. We are alive unlike many others.

Daveboy

I have read your post above and some of your other posts on this latest disaster, and one thing I do gather is that this disaster has had a great impact on you, as indeed it has, on many of us.

I personally come from the South of India, and while I am physically in the UK, I have obviously had the misfortune of hearing bad news about a number of ex-associates / friends, and have been subjected to these horror stories first hand (and I use the word 'subjected' because it is not a very comfortable feeling when you hear some of them)

However, while I respect your empathy for what all these guys have been through / are going through, I don't see the point behind this outburst at all posters on this forum (or on the credit cards forums)

First of all, charity is a personal choice and is undertaken solely based on choice. You cannot enforce charity, as in that case, it becomes extortion. Secondly, I don't see any of the posters on this chain having expressed hesitation from donating just because of the 0870 number. Indeed, the discussion so far has been more on the constructive side, with guys hoping that even if it were a 0870 number charging you extra for a call, that extra bit of revenue is also going into the contribution we make to the disaster relief.

I am fully confident, someone who has decided to donate any amount for a cause will not be dissuaded from doing so, by the fact that they have to pay 4p extra per minute for a phone call they make.

The thought to enlist all the help we can garner is good. But let us not divert focus into needless altercations and by adopting a 'holier than thou' attitude on these forums.

bunking_off

Re the DEC line, I don't think people are being at all fair. There are basically 3 options (I say basically because there are variants, e.g. 0844, 0845, 0870 etc).

1) Use a geographic (01, 02) number
2) Use an 0800 number
3) Use an 0870 number.

Now, (1) is a non-starter. DEC have approx 3000 lines (according to the press), and to accommodate that volume of calls, in general you need what's called "Intelligent Network" facilities (fancy call routing to ensure the calls actually reach an operator). As a rule, these simply aren't provided on geo numbers; they're put onto 08 & 09 to stream the calls to the "intelligent" part of the telecoms network at the earliest opportunity. It *is* possible to have IN type services on geo numbers, but it's complex and in general the customer - ie DEC - will pay to receive calls in this scenario.

That leaves (2) & (3). On 0800, DEC would have to pay to receive the calls. Arguably the telco would make a charitable donation to DEC that would balance this. On 0870, DEC will probably receive a proportion of the call cost, but this will nowhere near cover their costs in answering the call...it just goes some way towards it.

The point has been made that the objection is to some third party making a profit out of this - this can only mean the telecoms providers as the fees received by DEC will in no way cover their call centre costs. I've established above that the call centre couldn't have been provided on a geo number so it's pretty pointless arguing about what cut the telcos would have made in this scenario. For the other possibilities, the margin on 0800 and 0870 to the telco's is pretty much the same (and, believe me, tiny as this is a cut-throat business).

The DEC 0870 number is a BT one. If you look at DEC's website (https://www.dec.org.uk), you'll find it plastered with BT logos. I would be absolutely amazed if BT are not making donations to DEC that far outweigh any profit they're making on the number. On many of the higher profile charity fundraisers, it's typically the telecoms providers' staff (BT and others) that are manning the phones, free of charge - don't know if this is the case on this occasion.

I have to agree with an earlier poster that I think there's a need for a bit of perspective here. 100K+ people are dead, the British people have dug in their pockets to the tune of £40M+, and people are complaining about the cost of the call. If you're really bothered, donate on-line.

loxian

There are far more important aspects to this than you point out. Firstly, intelligent routing is perfectly possible with geographic numbers. BT, which seems to be the provider, could provide geographic termination with routing without any difficulty or cost to the charity whatsoever. Secondly the pervasive use of 0870 means that the idiotic FCO is using such a number as its travel advice line thus potentially precluding those that need help the most from being able to terminate a call from overseas. Whilst the FCO does have a 020 number for people to contact, its travel advice is specifically given on the revenue-generating 0870 number. Thirdly it would be nice to think that the revenue generated from the use of these premium numbers makes its way back to the original cause but, as these numbers are operated in such a clandestine way, it is hardly transparent. Other developed countries use toll-free numbers. Only in the UK does it seem that, whatever the disaster, someone somewhere has to profit from these premium rate numbering. It is a disgrace. Yes it is insignificant in terms of the overall disaster, but still a disgrace.

bunking_off

I don't work for BT. To the best of my knowledge, they don't provide an intelligent routing service on standard geographic numbers (NB I'm not saying that they don't, I am saying that I'm not aware of one). You are correct to state that it is technically possible to provide intelligent routing on geo numbers : however, being technically possible & commercially in place are two separate things. The company I work for does provide such a facility, but the receiver of the call has to make a payment as the geo call fee does not cover the costs involved - that would be hardly appropriate in these circumstances.

Not all 0870 numbers involve revenue share : in many cases the additional call charges pay for the flexibility gained by the customer, e.g. time of day routing, proportional distribution of calls etc.

I can't say what the situation is for the FCO. If they are indulging in revenue share and not giving a geo number for use from overseas destinations (and unless you work either for the FCO or their telecoms provider, I don't honestly think you can answer that), then this is wrong and should be stopped : perhaps a query from your MP would get to the bottom of it.

There are moves afoot to enable access to 0870 numbers from overseas (currently it's sporadic). However, to enable the international operator to make the appropriate termination fee to the 0870 provider, they have to charge a higher rate to the originating overseas telecoms provider (France Telecom, Hong Kong Telecom etc). This means that in many cases the originating end doesn't enable the +44870 range. Further, because some 0870 providers don't want international access, the international operator ends up enabling individual 0870 ranges from specific destinations : many international providers decide this is too much grief, hence the sporadic availability.

The UK market on 08 numbers has developed according to what customers want (NB by customers I mean those who take the numbers : clearly many callers are unhappy). Corporate customers have the option of taking 0800 numbers...it's hardly the fault of the telecoms providers if they decide they prefer to use 0870 numbers. Arguably, these type of decisions haven't been possible elsewhere. In the US, for example, where 1-800 dominates, revenue share arrangements were a lot later into the market than freephone, by which time no company would dare force their customers to pay for calls when their competitors used 1-800. Had revenue share been launched at the same time as freephone (like the UK), I suspect things would be very different.

I don't for one moment defend users of 0870 numbers : where possible I either avoid them or if a call takes longer than 2 minutes, demand a credit to compensate for my phone bill (it works!). However, I would defend telecoms providers against accusations of profiteering on these numbers...they're some of our lowest margin activity.

loxian

Irrespective of what BT claim they can and cannot do with respect to intelligent routing for a geographic termination, it can be done and it can be done very easily. It used to happen. It doesn't happen now because 0870 is more lucrative and admittedly simpler. Long before 0870 and 0990, call centres handled thousands of calls on standard area code numbers. There is a lack of will to do this now due to greed and obsession with 0870 and 0871 numbers.

The FCO in its correspondence with me last year refused to provide a geographic alternative for its travel advice line. It is simply being stubborn and greedy as it receives significant revenue from its rip-off number. MPs and the wider general public don't understand the problem. I cannot write to my MP as I do not have one. Only Ofcom can sort out the mess and it is toothless. In contrast, the Department of State here has both a toll-free number for use within the United States and a geographic termination for those overseas. The FCO should take note. It won't of course.

Your comments about termination from overseas are spot on. Doing business with the UK from here (United States) is very difficult with organizations that use NGN. I hope that the UK never gets awarded the Olympic games or any other major event. Orgz are so wrapped up in using premium numbers that they couldn't care less about serving customers.

With very few exceptions, 0870 is ALWAYS a ripoff to the end user. The use by the DEC and the FCO is symptomatic with what is wrong with the United Kingdom. Greed above service. Disregard for consumers. Thankfully I don't have to live in the place.