Anybody heard of Infranomics

Richie-from-the-Boro

Cardew

Which extract in post#3 is exactly the sort of misleading rubbish that we get time and again ?

"stated savings of 45% on heating costs"

Cardew

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

Cardew

Which extract in post#3 is exactly the sort of misleading rubbish that we get time and again ?

"stated savings of 45% on heating costs"

The implication in the advert that a 1kW infranomic heater produces the same heat in 20 mins that a 1kW convection heater will produce in an hour.



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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]What is cheaper to run in order to get me warm... [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1kW convection heater producing [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1kW[/FONT] of heat output running for an hour or a [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1kW[/FONT] Infranomic heater producing [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1kW[/FONT] of heat output running for 20 minutes?[/FONT][/FONT]
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They then develop the theme to using examples of their heaters in a hall and landing.(where most people do not sit still to get the benefit)
The whole thrust of the advet is to convince the non-technical that they produce more heat for the same cost.
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Richie-from-the-Boro

Cardew wrote: »

The implication in the advert that a 1kW infranomic heater produces the same heat in 20 mins that a 1kW convection heater will produce in an hour.



[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
They then develop the theme to using examples of their heaters in a hall and landing.(where most people do not sit still to get the benefit)
The whole thrust of the advet is to convince the non-technical that they produce more heat for the same cost.
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We all I assume agree that on-peak leccy is almost certainly going to remain the most expensive heating fuel for the next decade or more. Infrared electric heating is 100% efficient, but - its no more efficient nor less efficient than any other electric 'resistance' heating It offers no benefits in running costs compared to others unless you put up with lower internal temperatures and have a single person household, or two people sitting on one chair, close to and facing the source of heat. Even then they'd better not have a coffee table or a dog or anything in direct line with the heater, at least until the dog or table heats up sufficiently and is of itself a 'radiator'.

If the model I've painted in your head of 'a single person household, or two people sitting on one chair' is modified then you need in fact two or more of these heaters. One of their adverts even claims to be able to 'bend' the 'infrared ' to warm otherwise cold area's of the room. Elke, Sunflow or Infranomics, all made in Germany - snake~oil also made in Germany. Pricing like all these products are only after they are in your home behind closed doors. In a 28 sq meter living room they [2009 UK standard was 18°C 2013 is 21°C] recommend three 500 watt heating panels at [2011 prices] £1372.44 that's to say two for heat and the third I assume to 'bend' the infrared. Extrapolate that to a small flat and the cost at 2011 prices was £4551.56 + installation + running [13.00 p/kWh, working for a 140 day heating period and running for 6 hours per day).] costs.

We had these systems [experimental] in the 60's and 70's in the UK, they were judged to be more than unsatisfactory and an overly expensive way to heat homes and were soon replaced by conventional typical heating systems, this was also the case for the discredited 'ceiling heat' central heating systems. The laws of thermodynamics always disagrees with marketing hype, the same company used to claim that 570W of power and produced a heat output ratio of 920W, they've dropped that claim now, but like the kipper ties of the 60's, they, the usual German makers have been trying to make a comeback and break into the UK market again with free install trails etc since 2009. Now if another experimental trial was run, it would reach the same uneconomic conclusions only quicker, the laws of thermodynamics have not changed in that time period but the year on year cost increase of electricity has.

NOTE : It occurred to me years ago, and reiterated by your old friend 'fishybusiness' who was 'on the money', and logical in their application that a ceiling panel install would be 'best use'. Even a concrete floor [night store] underfloor reservoir system would be infinitely better use of the tech [but impossible for retro fit] than their current marketing.

macman

rogerblack wrote: »

This is true only for means of heating that heat the whole room.
If you end up not needing to heat the whole room to as high a temperature - things vary.

In the case of IR panels that you sit right next to (and I mean as close as your monitor is now, or not much further) you can be significantly warmer than the air temperature would indicate.
Similarly - electric blankets or heated throws provide the ultimate in directed heating, and can make you comfortable at ridiculously low temperatures if you've got a reasonable circulatory system.
(For example, 7C is quite comfortable for me, and exposed hands for long periods, if my core temperature is warmed by the electric blanket.)

NEVER EVER BUY A HEATING PRODUCT FROM SOMEONE SELLING DOOR TO DOOR.

But equally, if you were to buy a £20 2kWh convector from Lidl and sit right next to it, you might feel warmer than when sitting on the other side of the room...
The point here is that any company claiming to sell heaters that will reduce your heating bills by 45% is peddling snake oil. No responsible company would make such a claim, because it won't stand up to the least bit of rational analysis.
And I endorse your last sentence 100%.

jwdale80

I have been intrigued with this type of heating, and I will tell you of my own experience. The cost of running this heater is not huge if used as a 'back up'. 6 hours of usage with the 2kw (21 degrees) and 14hrs usage of the 550w (19 degrees) put my bill up by around £50 on my bi-monthly bill. In terms of ofsetting large oil bills it has been very usefull.
I have proved either one of 2 possible things. Either:
electric heating can be cheap- if use for only a few rooms, and controlled with a thermostat and timer, or, the heaters are acctually quite efficient.
The companies making this type of heater say that they are 100% efficient, but 'convection' is not a 100% means of delivering that heat into the room, and a person feels warmer with radiant heat.
I find the heat pleasant, and with regard to the 'spot heating concern', I find this only partially true, but areas outside of the beam did become sufficiently warm.
I managed to get one that was an ex demo for less than half price, so if it is all just rubbish, at least I havent paid a fortune.

macman

You are missing the point. A kWh of heat produced by oil CH is still cheaper than a kWh of heat produced by any type of electric heater.
Of course if you only use it as a back up, it will be cheaper, because it's producing less heat!
Electric heating can be more economic if you are only heating a few rooms, but then you are not comparing like with like. What matters is the comparative kWh cost.,

fishybusiness

You are missing the point. A kWh of heat produced by oil CH is still cheaper than a kWh of heat produced by any type of electric heater.
Of course if you only use it as a back up, it will be cheaper, because it's producing less heat!

Personally I don't think he is missing the point

Perhaps this is the point?

a person feels warmer with radiant heat.

It is true, and not wishing to detract from any debate of electric heating efficiency, or laws of physics, or any other debate had around the use of infrared panels, as they have been done again and again, jw's experience is similar to my own.

I find the heat pleasant, and with regard to the 'spot heating concern', I find this only partially true, but areas outside of the beam did become sufficiently warm.

I found this too.

macman

But one person 'feeling warmer' with a particular kind of heating is a purely subjective view. If it works for you fine: it may or may not apply to anyone else.
And 'feeling warmer' and 'cheapest to run' are entirely different things. if you are happy with radiantr electric heating, fine, but don't kid yourself that it's cheaper to run per kWh than oil CH, or more efficient than any other form of electric heating.

fishybusiness

Come on, who said this, apart from you?

but don't kid yourself that it's cheaper to run per kWh than oil CH, or more efficient than any other form of electric heating.

I don't think anyone is 'kidding' anyone, no one said it is, or can be any cheaper to run than oil CH?? Or any more efficient than any other type of electric heating???

But one person 'feeling warmer' with a particular kind of heating is a purely subjective view. If it works for you fine: it may or may not apply to anyone else.
And 'feeling warmer' and 'cheapest to run' are entirely different things

...could apply to any person and any form of heating????

I thought JW's comments useful, and they mirror my own experience with infrared panels.

Indeed a subjective view, maybe you can just accept my view as different to yours without waffling on about oil CH and efficiencies?

macman

fishybusiness wrote: »

Come on, who said this, apart from you?



I don't think anyone is 'kidding' anyone, no one said it is, or can be any cheaper to run than oil CH?? Or any more efficient than any other type of electric heating???



...could apply to any person and any form of heating????

I thought JW's comments useful, and they mirror my own experience with infrared panels.

Indeed a subjective view, maybe you can just accept my view as different to yours without waffling on about oil CH and efficiencies?

Indeed it could, which is why the cost per kWh is the only valid means of comparison.
I fully accept your view, but am simply making the point that it's an opinion, and not a theory than can be proven.