Flight delay compensation, all other EU airlines

PhilB3374

Hi,


On 15th November I was due to fly from JFK to LGW on Norwegian. Snow had been forecast all week (so wasn't a surprise) but my flight ended up being delayed 29hrs and 35mins due to the crew being out of time and not being able to fly. Other flights were departing so it wasn't a case of the airport not being operational.



We were due to fly at 19:40, didn't board the plane until around 23:00 and at 00:55 were told we couldn't fly due to the crew needing to be in the air by 01:00. The aircraft had been at JFK all afternoon


I have received the following response from Norwegian:



Thank you for contacting us with your claim. We regret the time it’s taken to respond to you and we thank you for your patience.

Unfortunately, Norwegian flight DI7018 (JFK-LGW) 15.11.2018 was delayed by 29 hours and 35 minutes due to adverse weather conditions. This disruption was caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken.

Although we respect your request for compensation, we’re unable to honour your claim as your flight was delayed due to extraordinary circumstances. This is in accordance with the European Court of Justice Verdict C-549/07 Wallentin-Hermann.

We apologise for the inconvenience caused on this occasion and hope to have the opportunity to welcome you on board a Norwegian flight when you next choose to travel.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]


Is snow in New York which had been forecast all week an extraordinary circumstance, or should they have been able to take reasonable measures to avoid the situation?


Do I have a case or should I give up? If I have a case any suggestions on how to construct a letter myself, or should I go to a NWNF provider?


Any help will be gratefully received!

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

jpsartre

EUClaim says there's no claim so you'll probably struggle. You could try Bott and Co.

Tyzap

[QUOTE=PhilB3374;
Any help will be gratefully received!

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/QUOTE]


Hi Phil,

An airport being closed by snow is an extraordinary circumstance (EC) so if the airport was closed for the whole of that period you would not have a claim.
Obviously it wasn't, so we must look at the 2nd part of the obligation that the airline must fulfil 'all reasonable measures' if it wants to avoid paying compensation.

This is the bit that flight delay calculators are not very good at due to the circumstances varying in every case.

What this boils down to is whether the airline could and should have done more to mitigate the delay. If you can show 'in all probability' that they could have done better to lessen the delay they would have to pay you delay compensation.

Flight crew being out of hours is not an EC, particularly when the snow was forecast in advance. The airline could have mitigated the delay by having a standby crew available, placing passengers on alternative flights or re routing them etc

The airline have to prove that the delay does qualify as an EC, you don't have to disprove it but it helps if you know the rules.

Good luck.

PhilB3374

Thanks for your help so far!


Is there any website I can find details of other flights which took off from JFK on the date in question as a possible way of proving that weather wasn't an issue?

Tyzap

PhilB3374 wrote: »

Thanks for your help so far!


Is there any website I can find details of other flights which took off from JFK on the date in question as a possible way of proving that weather wasn't an issue?

You can use the Planefinder app to playback a time, date, airport.

Good luck.

k3lvc

bryanlifestyle wrote: »

Look at all the evidence you can particularly whether other airlines were grounded on the same day.

For help with flight delay compensation follow the link: goo.gl/k6k2ZY

Cracking 'lifestyle' you have there Bryan - spamming websites with your !!!! - seriously aspirational :rotfl::rotfl:

PhilB3374

Tyzap wrote: »

You can use the Planefinder app to playback a time, date, airport.

Good luck.

Thanks. I’ve had a look at that and can see flights arriving and departing but it doesn’t really give me any evidence I can send to Norwegian. The only place I can find with such data comes at a cost of about $1000!

Tyzap

PhilB3374 wrote: »

Thanks. I’ve had a look at that and can see flights arriving and departing but it doesn’t really give me any evidence I can send to Norwegian. The only place I can find with such data comes at a cost of about $1000!

Unless and until you go to court it's probably all you need. You can always take a screen shot to back up your text.

You know that the airport was operational and other flights were arriving and departing, It's up to the airline to prove the delay was caused by an EC, not for you to disprove it. You also know that the crew going out of legal flying hours is down to poor/lack of backup or standby procedures by the airline.

The airline quotes the Wallentin-Hermann court case which was about the link between a technical breakdown and an EC, but not about weather. You can read it here...

http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&docid=73223&pageIndex=0&doclang=EN&mode=lst&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=226657

It is more help than a hinderance to your situation.

If Norwegian won't pay up you can ask for a referral to AviationADR...

https://www.aviationadr.org.uk

They understand the regulations and should find in your favour.

Good luck.

familyguy12

I was caught up in the Birmingham Air traffic control failure mess on December 23rd.

Flight was to Dublin with Aer Lingus at 19:50pm.

Announcement was around 6pm that all flights had been suspended and to contact your airline.
I went through security and waited further news.
The departure screens first said "awaiting further info".
Later close to 8pm (after scheduled takeoff time) they announced my flight had been cancelled.
I received a text message to confirm this.
The BHX airport website also displayed the flight as cancelled.

The departure board then declared that passengers should go down to Gate 58.
On arrival approx 100 passengers were waiting, some sitting, some standing whilst 2 staff members (I assume airport staff as they didn't have Aer Lingus uniforms) tried to get information.

Maybe an hour later we were advised a flight from Manchester was being arranged.
Long story short, we were sent back out through arrivals and told to go to a coach in the carpark.
There was no official guiding us or helping advise exactly where to go or what time the flight from MAN would be leaving etc.

Everyone just followed each other like sheep hoping they knew where to go.
Eventually got on the bus which took approx 1.5 hours.
When we got to MAN we disembarked and people were taking their bags off only to be told by the carpark staff we were in the wrong terminal and so back on the bus for maybe 10 mins to go to T2 (I think).
Again once off the bus, no one there to point the way, zero communication.
People filtered into an empty check in desk area, maybe another half hour passed until a single Aer Lingus staff member started issuing new tickets from the check in desk for the flight out.

Back through security and to the gate (the new ticket issued stated 2140h but it was approaching 11.30pm at this point.

Queued for another 45mins approx - I think they had to re-fuel and allow passengers off a flight that had landed to get us on.

Finally took off from Manchester circa 1am with the AL pilot apologising but blaming the ATC failure at Birmingham.

Just to note also that to the best of my knowledge no one was offered complimentary refreshments or vouchers etc.

We landed in Dublin around 1.35am approx.


My original plan was to get a connecting bus to my destination but it wasn't one I had a ticket bought for, instead I ended up getting a taxi around 2am which cost 20 euro.


I thought given it was a 5 hour delay I would be entitled to some compensation, I used the very useful Resolver tool on here.


Aer Lingus responded quite quickly...



Dear Mr.

---

I was sorry to learn your were affected by the disruption to Aer Lingus flight EI215 on December 23, 2018. Please accept my apologies on behalf of Aer Lingus.

The EI 215 was disrupted due to Air Traffic Control issues in Birmingham. Aer Lingus deems this an extraordinary circumstance and wish to invoke Article 5 Paragraph 3 of the European Regulation 261/2004. This was the basis for the disruption on this occasion and unfortunately, no compensation is due.


With regard to the lack of assistance and information regarding the disruption, as a customer focused airline, we greatly value our passengers' feedback and perspectives. So we appreciate the time you took to let know about your experience, when you travelled with us recently. Clearly, we did not deliver or meet your expectations on this occasion and I would simply like to apologize to you for the inconvenience.

It is our policy to follow-up on all customers' comments and to incorporate them into the operational review of the manager responsible for the service. A copy of your comments has been sent to the Airport Manager.


I hope despite the difficulties encountered on this occasion, you will afford us the opportunity to welcome you on board our services for a more enjoyable experience in the future.

To respond or update your case please click here. Please include your case number, 3165092, on all correspondence.
[END]

One important factor in this instance. Birmingham airport was back to being fully operational before we left on the coach for Manchester. Well before that I believe in hindsight. They announced the ATC issue was resolved, Twitter is probably a good guide as to the timeline of events.

I asked an Aer Lingus steward when we boarded later that night why they didn't just fly us out from Birmingham later that night given they were back in operation and he mentioned that once they decided to cancel it they wouldn't have had the staff / crew available to manage it or words to that affect and the decision was made to get people to their destination via Manchester.

Should I leave it at that or does anyone feel I could be entitled to some form of compensation for this?

jpsartre

Personally I think you'll struggle to get anything given the nature of the delay. If your routing had been reversed you'd have a better case as you'd expect Aer Lingus to have better back-up mechanisms in place at DUB.