Flight delay compensation, all other non-EU airlines

juni

Reading in october

htb

I have searched the forum for a "united' thread, but I don't come on here very often and may be in the wrong place, apologies if so.

My family traveled London - Virgina (USA) via Newark in August. One booking reference, through ticket all with United. There was a 1.5 hour delay taking off from London, which meant by the time we got to New York we missed our connection. The delay from the captain at the time was 'awaiting passengers'. When we got to Newark, we were put on the last flight out to Norfolk (which in turn was delayed). We got to our destination 6 hours later than scheduled.

I opened a case via resolver, and the first response from UA said 'you were only 91 mins delayed into Newark and this is under 3hrs, therefore does not apply. We then pointed out final destination and was told, 'extraordinary circumstances' so does not apply, valued customer blah blah and was emailed vouchers of $300 each. I went back and said I did not accept the vouchers, stood my ground and asked them to explain what were the 'extraordinary circumstances'. No response to that only, 'we have reviewed and closed your case'. I took it to the CAA in september and waited until January only to be told the 'extraordinary circumstances' were 'ground handling' . (not sure whether that is extraordinary or not... ). CAA also closed the case as UA was arguing it did not fall within EU regulation. I asked how CAA could close the case, and allow UA to dictate whether it complied or not?

I raised an appeal with CAA and had this response today

Whilst United Airlines have declined your claim on the basis of a 91 minute ground handling delay that caused you to miss your connecting flight, we would argue that this would not be considered an “extraordinary circumstance” and is inherent in normal airline operations. However, in addition to the reason for the delay, United Airlines feel that missed connections outside the EU arising from delay within the EU are outside the scope of Regulation EC261/2004.

Our view is different from that of United Airlines and we feel the case of Sturgeon v Condor Flugdienst GmbH and Bock and others v Air France SA (19 November 2009) in the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) established the right to seek compensation for delays of 3 hours or more and made reference to the delay to the “final destination” as set out in Regulation EC261/2004, specifically Article 2:
Article 2
Definitions
For the purposes of this Regulation:
(h) "final destination" means the destination on the ticket presented at the check-in counter or, in the case of directly connecting flights, the destination of the last flight; alternative connecting flights available shall not be taken into account if the original planned arrival time is respected;

We, like you, feel in a case such as yours, the “final destination” is Norfolk Virginia, but we face constraints in imposing our view on the airline. As you will be aware from our e-mail of 18 January, we are not in a position to impose a solution on a particular complaint in the same way as an Ombudsman type scheme and we can only advise on the possible next step.



They say I could take it to court (seek legal advice). I am hoping that is a good sign. I have looked at MSE and some people talk about MCOL and some small claims (are they different?) . Has anyone had success and which approach did they take?

I note someone posted a United airlines address on the forum some time ago, but Im not sure if that is an up to date address as I cant find a UA (UK) contact?. Anyone know the contact?

Many thanks

David_e

htb wrote: »

They say I could take it to court (seek legal advice). I am hoping that is a good sign. I have looked at MSE and some people talk about MCOL and some small claims (are they different?) . Has anyone had success and which approach did they take?

Sounds like you have a case so get reading how to do it yourself: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4896454 or speak to a no win no fee firm - check the good ones mentioned on here.

JPears

Read Vauban's forum, its all in there.

Netski

I hope I am posting in the right place.
Can anyone tell me if Qantas are telling the truth here?

I flew with Qantas QF2 Heathrow - Dubai - Sydney, and QF145 to Auckland, all on one ticket.
The QF2 flight was over 3 hours late taking off at Heathrow, and over 3 hours late landing in Sydney. I had missed my connecting flight, was put on the next available one and was over 4 hours late arriving in Auckland.

They have offered me Euro300 for a >3hr delay but not the >4 hr delay as they say the final destination is not Auckland - this is their explanation:

I understand that your journey to Auckland consisted of two separate flights, the first being Qantas flight QF2 from London to Sydney, and the second being Qantas flight QF145 from Sydney to Auckland.

As mentioned previously Qantas is not a Community carrier and Sydney is not a European port. This means that the European Regulations do not apply to flights that are departing from Sydney. This is consistent with the UK High Court’s decision in Sanghvi v Cathay Pacific Airways that the European Regulation does not apply for missed connecting flights outside the UK.

In Sanghvi, the passenger bought a return ticket from London to Sydney via Hong Kong with Cathay Pacific. The flight from London to Hong Kong was delayed, causing the passenger to miss their flight to Sydney. The High Court held the relevant arrival time for assessing compensation under EC261 was that in Hong Kong, not Sydney.

As the further delay from Sydney cannot be considered under EC261/2004 regulation, you are eligible for EUR300.00 for the delay incurred from London to Sydney on QF2 departing 13 December 2015.

Are they right? Even if they are having me on, am I better off saving my time and taking the EUR300?

:A

JPears

Netski - this is a grey area. Quantas have quoted 1 case at you - which I don't think sets precedent, was it a High Court case? I stand to be corrected.
Other claimants have won on this matter. I think the justification, as you have pointed out, is that when you made the booking probably through Quantas, you were requesting a journey - from a departure point to a destination, irrespective of changes required. If your journey had consisted of say flight from Heathrow, change Rome then direct to Auckland, you would have been covered.
From previous posts, Folkerts judgement would appear to trump Sanghvi, particularly as the cause of your overall delay was the EU leg, not the second or third leg.

Carol_B

I'm sorry I'm new to this posting of threads, so I hope this is appropriate. We recently travelled on Qatar Airways from Singapore to Manchester via Doha. There was a technical issue with the plane at Singapore and we were delayed for three and a half hours whist engineers fixed the problem. The cabin manager approached us and informed us that it was Qatars fault and they would take care of us at Doha. We arrived in Doha having missed the connection to Manchester and had a four and a half hour wait. We eventually arrived in Manchester about 6 and a half hours late. I am not sure if we are entitled to claim anything as, although our end destination was in the EU , our actual delayed flight was not to,or from the EU. I haven't approached Qatar yet as I wanted to be in possession of more information. Thanks

Vauban

You are not entitled to anything under the EU regulations - non-EU carrier flying from non-EU airport. But complain to the airline and see if they'll offer you owt.

Carol_B

Just as I feared. Thank you very much for the advice, I will throw myself on the mercy of the airline.:j

Afdaff

Hello. I am looking for advice on behalf of my husband regarding problems with Royal Air Maroc this week. He was booked onto flights last Tues from London through to Chad, via Casablanca. A few days before his departure date the airline rang to say they had cancelled the flight and would he like to choose another date or take a refund. He accepted to change the date to yesterday, despite considerable inconvenience to us all. Then on Thurs they rang again to say that flight was also being cancelled. No explanation given but we are presuming it is due to insufficient passenger numbers in a fairly new route. This time they didn't even offer him a refund, just another change of date. So he's provisionally booked into a flight in a number of weeks time but would really rather take the refund and book with another airline! Plus of course any compensation he may be due (he gave up his job in order to make this journey so any compensation would be most welcome!). Where does he stand, do you think?