Flight delay compensation, all other non-EU airlines

Westin

alecchalmers said:

Hi all,

I'm at a loss and don't understand the compensation system regarding international flights, so any advice would be appreciated.

We booked via Expedia to fly from Manchester to Chicago Via Heathrow on July 19th 2022 (the hottest day of the year). BA was flying us from Manchester to Heathrow, then AA was going to fly us from Heathrow to Chicago. As we pull up to the airport we get a notification that our AA flight to Chicago is cancelled, and have finally received a reason from AA. It was an operational failure and crew-related issues. There's no point getting on the connecting flight to Heathrow; we can't arrange anything in time, and the airline isn't offering alternative flights, so we just go home.

We eventually got through to BA on the phone (there was no one at the airport willing to speak to us about it) who offer to reschedule our flights to next year for a fee. Quite a big fee, over £350 for the privilege of moving our flights to the only time convenient for us to reschedule.

So much money was wasted on the cattery, parking, food at the airport while we waited for a response, insurance we didn't need, and multiple hotels abroad. I'm also not happy about being scared into paying to move the flight or we might lose the only window of time we can travel next year.

• Where do we stand with compensation?

• I can't find a dispute company that deals with AA, does anyone know of one?

I tried through BA and CEDR but because the flight has an AA code I can't use them, which makes sense.

• Do I also apply through my travel insurance company?

I am really surprised that you were not auto-rebooked on to an alternative LHR-ORD flight that same day.  There are up to 6 daily direct flights on the LHR-ORD route between AA/BA and another 8 indirect combinations most days routing via Madrid or another US point.

alecchalmers

Thank you @eskbanker for your comment.

Things are much clearer in my head now. So I will try to claim directly with AA, and sort the rest out with the insurance.

I did think it was odd that we were charged so much to rebook, and will be querying this too.

@Westin We thought the same thing, just by chance that day was absolute chaos with runways melting and I think a car was just on fire outside from sitting in the sun. It was also not long after airlines flying out of Heathrow had been told to reduce the number of passengers somehow. I figure some of it was perhaps just looking for an opportunity to reduce numbers. We were asked multiple times if we would like to move our flights to next year, in the weeks before it was cancelled, which does arouse suspicion.

thermalboyz

Hi, anyone knows how to complain about Saudi / Saudia airlines? Which regulator Saudia with as I cannot find any information online. 

sent my complaint through email, no responses. Their website complaint is a joke. Now i am trying to move a level up and do appreciate your input. There are very few or dated Saudi / Saudia Airline related complaints on MSE either. 

eskbanker

thermalboyz said:

Hi, anyone knows how to complain about Saudi / Saudia airlines? Which regulator Saudia with as I cannot find any information online.

Googling 'saudi aviation regulator' brings up https://gaca.gov.sa/web/en-gb/page/home as the regulatory body, which seems to have an option to submit complaints about airlines.

mojo293

Just posted on the BA thread about a flight cancellation on a recent trip to New York. The flight was rebooked (with BA partner American Airlines) and we got home a day later than scheduled, but our flight with AA was delayed out of JFK. I have looked already and it appears that we may not be able to claim anything for this delay, but just wanted an opinion from knowledgable people here too.

Flight is due to depart JFK at 10:29pm (US Time), due to land at Heathrow at 10:35am (UK time).

Flight is fully boarded and everyone seated at around 10:15pm. 10:35pm we begin to move off from the gate and taxi. Then captain announces there is 'an issue with the air conditioning system and we need to return to the gate to have it addressed', so we head back to the gate and come to a stop. This goes on for around an hour or so.

Once completed the captain announces that due to standing, 'we need to top up the fuel before we can takeoff'. This takes around another hour or so in total. After this, there is another delay of roughly 30mins whilst paperwork for the refuel is brought to the flight deck.

We finally take off at approx. 1:45am. During the delay, we remained on the plane, and were not even offered a bottle of water. Normal in-flight service began as normal after take off. I understand they wouldn't bring forward the in-flight service, but perhaps should have at least offered a drink of water?

We land at Heathrow at 13:42pm (UK Time) - this is 3 hrs 7mins later than scheduled (10:35am).

I used the compensation tool on here (through Resolver), but have since read that AA do not offer compensation for flight delays, and being a flight departing outside the EU, this isn't covered by the normal rules either, so will probably be refused via Resolver, if they even respond.

I suspect theres nothing to gain from this, but just wanted another opinion.

Cheers, MJ

eskbanker

mojo293 said:

I used the compensation tool on here (through Resolver), but have since read that AA do not offer compensation for flight delays, and being a flight departing outside the EU, this isn't covered by the normal rules either, so will probably be refused via Resolver, if they even respond.

I suspect theres nothing to gain from this, but just wanted another opinion.

As you suspect, the UK regulations don't apply to an American airline departing from the USA (unless on a multi-leg connection originating on this side of the pond) - unfortunately this is fact rather than opinion!

This Regulation shall apply:

(a) to passengers departing from an airport located in the United Kingdom;

(b) to passengers departing from an airport located in a country other than the United Kingdom to an airport situated in—

(i) the United Kingdom if the operating air carrier of the flight concerned is a Community carrier or a UK air carrier; or

(ii) the territory of a Member State to which the Treaty applies if the operating air carrier of the flight concerned is a UK air carrier,

unless the passengers received benefits or compensation and were given assistance in that other country.

The EU regulations are even less relevant if the flight doesn't touch EU territory....

thepeopleschamp

Hi
Anyone had any experience with claiming compensation from PIA (Pakistan International Airlines)?
My flight was cancelled in December 2022 (PK786 13/12/2022 18:00) without the airline informing me and I had to check PCN myself and status of the flight showed as cancelled. This was within 14 days. Before 14 days the flights appeared to show a status of confirmed.
I then had to chase up their customer services included paying a visit to Heathrow T3 but to find no-one at their customer services desk. Their UK phone numbers were non-existent and I had to speak to someone from their Karachi office several times.
They issued me e-tickets on the following dates but then cancelled again:

- E-tickets issued by PIA on 3rd December for rearranged outbound 13th December and

return 29th December via TK1971.

- E-Tickets issued by PIA on 5th December for rearranged outbound 12th December via

TK1986 and return 29th December via TK1985.
- Final e-tickets issued by PIA on 6th December for rearranged outbound 13th December TK1980 at 11.35 and return 29th December via TK1985. This they didn't cancel and I travelled on this ending up losing one day.

I made an official complaint to the airline about the experience I went through and had all this all documented.
I then put in a compensation claim showing all the evidence of emails, phone calls, constant changing of flights and after a few months constantly trying to get a response back from them they rejected on the basis that the alternative flight landed within an hour of the original expected arrival time.
Here was their response:

I note from your letter that you have requested compensation for a cancelled flight PK9786 scheduled to depart on 13 December 2022 for the above-mentioned passengers.

Firstly, I would like to sincerely apologise for all the convenience caused in your journey with us. I have investigated your claim and on conclusion of my investigation, I deny that you are due compensation. It is my findings that despite all the changes in schedule, your original flight was scheduled to depart on 13 December 2022 at 18:00 and arrive 5:45 on 14 December 2022. You were provided an alternative route to travel on 13 December 2022 via Istanbul and arrive at Islamabad, your final destination, at 03:55 on 14 December 2022. The re-routing flight departed in some delay and you arrived at your final destination on 14 December 2022 at 05:08, less than an hour before your original scheduled time.

Albeit that it is accepted you were rerouted to travel under an alternative route to your chosen direct route, Article 8 of the EC Regulations states that passengers shall be offered re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity. In this matter, you were offered to travel on the same date and arrive at your destination within one hour earlier from your scheduled time. Therefore, releasing the Airline of its liability to award compensation as your arrived at your destination on the same date and time, save one hour earlier, you were scheduled to arrive amounting to comparable transport conditions at your destination at the earliest opportunity.

I responded back showing my disappointment and made the following points:

1. The airline never directly informed me of the cancellation even though it is their obligation to do so. (Article 5 Point 4) It was only by-chance that I checked my PNR on the PIA website and saw the flight was cancelled as mentioned in my complaint letter.
2. The re-arranged flights offered resulted in loss of one day on the travel plans as my original return date was 30th December and I was given 29th December on the re-arranged flight as 30th December was not available. I pushed PIA to give me a flight on 30th December and they couldn't offer me this and I reluctantly had to accept 29th December.
3. Even if the outbound flight was on the same date, I should still have been offered 50% compensation yet you failed to even offer this (See Article 7 Point 2C) - My original flight (PK786) was due to depart from LHR at 6pm and rearranged flight departed around 1pm therefore more than 2 hours before original flight was due to take off.
4. How about the cancellation of flights which were offered to me before 6th December, i.e on 3rd December and 5th December? You've totally ignored these even though I provided you with proof of their issuance with my claim. Do I make separate claims for compensation on these?

I escalated this to the CAA showing them all the evidence of my emails and issuance of tickets and cancellations. After waiting for over 3 months, they just got back to me a few days ago saying they tried to contact PIA but received no response and that from the evidence I provided I should have been eligible for compensation unless the airline could prove they cancelled due to 'extraordinary circumstances'. Here is the response from CAA:

As you may be aware, the relevant legislation covering this matter is EC Regulation 261/2004, which establishes common rules on compensation and assistance to passengers in the event of denied boarding and of cancellation or long delay of flights (the 'Regulation'). This provides that compensation is only payable if the disruption is inherent in the normal operation of an airline and was not due to 'extraordinary circumstances' that could not have been avoided by the airline even if all reasonable measures had been taken.

We have contacted Pakistan International Airlines about your complaint and asked them to reassess it. In the reassessment process, if Pakistan International Airlines claims the disruption was due to extraordinary circumstances, they must provide information to the CAA to justify their position.

I regret to inform you that, despite a number of attempts, Pakistan International Airlines has not responded to us with the information we need to assess an 'extraordinary circumstances' exception.

The CAA receives complaints and assists passengers in resolving them under the regulation. However, we do not have the legal power either to force airlines to respond to us, or to impose a solution that is binding on an airline. We are not an ombudsman scheme, and any view that we express on a particular matter is not legally binding.

In general, it is the airline that must prove 'extraordinary circumstances' existed and as such it does not need to pay compensation under the Regulation. In the absence of any information from the airline to justify that your flight disruption fell under this exception, we have considered your complaint based on the information provided by you. Based on that information and the airline's non-response, the CAA's opinion is that compensation would be payable in your case.

As stated above, although the CAA's opinion is that compensation is payable in your case, the CAA is not able to impose this decision on Pakistan International Airlines. Therefore, if you do wish to proceed with your complaint, you will need to decide whether you wish to issue a court claim. You can find consumer advice on taking a case to court at the following link: https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money 

If you do issue court claim, you may make reference to the CAA's opinion above in support of your claim. However, you should be aware that  Pakistan International Airlines may provide further information in the course of the court proceedings to justify its use of the 'extraordinary circumstances' exception.

We are very sorry that, despite the time taken to get to the bottom of your case, we are unable to help you further in this matter.

 

I wanted advice on before going to small claims court, should I try and contact PIA informing them of the CAA's verdict and that if they don't respond to this within a timeframe say 14 days then I will escalate this to legal action?

eskbanker

Personally I wouldn't pay too much attention to the CAA's 'verdict', all they're really saying is that the airline didn't provide any evidence of extraordinary circumstances. Having said that, the airline doesn't seem to be claiming that anyway, and appears to believe that arriving within an hour of schedule is enough to negate compensation, when departure time also has to be factored in as you say.

That seems to be the only UK/EC261 aspect of your complaint(s) - any return flight to the UK on a non-UK/EU airline is out of scope, and all the absence of notification, etc, doesn't give rise to a legal monetary claim as such, even though you can seek some sort of gesture for poor service.

thepeopleschamp

eskbanker said:

Personally I wouldn't pay too much attention to the CAA's 'verdict', all they're really saying is that the airline didn't provide any evidence of extraordinary circumstances. Having said that, the airline doesn't seem to be claiming that anyway, and appears to believe that arriving within an hour of schedule is enough to negate compensation, when departure time also has to be factored in as you say.

That seems to be the only UK/EC261 aspect of your complaint(s) - any return flight to the UK on a non-UK/EU airline is out of scope, and all the absence of notification, etc, doesn't give rise to a legal monetary claim as such, even though you can seek some sort of gesture for poor service.

So do you think it is worth contacting PIA again about this and mentioning going down legal route if they don't respond? Am I correct in being able to claim compensation if my flight departed much earlier than original even though it arrived around same time right?

eskbanker

thepeopleschamp said:

eskbanker said:

Personally I wouldn't pay too much attention to the CAA's 'verdict', all they're really saying is that the airline didn't provide any evidence of extraordinary circumstances. Having said that, the airline doesn't seem to be claiming that anyway, and appears to believe that arriving within an hour of schedule is enough to negate compensation, when departure time also has to be factored in as you say.

That seems to be the only UK/EC261 aspect of your complaint(s) - any return flight to the UK on a non-UK/EU airline is out of scope, and all the absence of notification, etc, doesn't give rise to a legal monetary claim as such, even though you can seek some sort of gesture for poor service.

So do you think it is worth contacting PIA again about this and mentioning going down legal route if they don't respond? Am I correct in being able to claim compensation if my flight departed much earlier than original even though it arrived around same time right?

I agree with your contention that, under article 5.1.c.iii, rerouting only negates compensation if "allowing them to depart no more than one hour before the scheduled time of departure and to reach their final destination less than two hours after the scheduled time of arrival", so if you were rerouted onto a flight five hours before scheduled departure then this doesn't waive compensation rights, even if arrival time was before schedule, so would recommend reverting to the airline and highlighting this.

Personally I wouldn't start threatening legal action at this stage, but it does remain an option should they refuse to accept that and fail to pay the £260.