Green Deal MSE Guide Discussion

Gloucester_Lad

Ecodave wrote: »

Nothing wrong with wanting it to be better, I would love it to be better also. But just saying that repeatedly won't make it better. Whilst you continue ranting about it, people who have no other options are being discouraged from taking action. I am quite happy to say that people should consider all other options before deciding to use the Green Deal, but where no other options are available then the Green Deal is far far better than doing nothing.

Richie-from-the-boro - regarding guarantees, when Gloucester Lad had his new boiler installed, he didn't ask the person he bought it off to guarantee that his fuel bills would fall below a certain level. If he had, what do you think the retailer would have told him? It wouldn't be that the retailer didn't have confidence in his product, it would be that the retailer would know that Gloucester Lad may decide to leave the heating on 24-7 if he were to offer him a guarantee about bills. Same with Green Deal.

" I would love it to be better also. But just saying that repeatedly won't make it better"????

If not by repeatedly pointing out shortcomings how then will we make it better?
The poor souls left with no other option but this deal are not going to be well served, and that's very wrong.
Lets do what we can to make the Green Deal a good deal for everyone especially those who might have no other avenue for money saving efficiency improvements.
I think the best way to get this dog of a deal improved is to not support it in it's current form.
Yes those who need help will wait longer but they won't be so badly ripped off and who's fault will the delay until improvement be anyway? Those who spotted and pointed out the bad parts of the deal or those who designed the bad deal in the first place?

Gloucester_Lad

grahamc2003 wrote: »

I wondered when the self-elevation of assessors would start. Whatever your personal very long and involved road to become an assessor, many totally unqualified people can become an assessor with only 4 days training, which includes the qualifying multi-choice test, which they helpfully tell you can be taken as many times as you like till you pass.

The 4 day is for complete beginners with no previous knowledge - as I said before, even if you don't know what a cavity wall is, 4,5 or 6 days later you can be an GD assessor.

And I doubt it will be long before a difficult sale will have a line such as 'if you go to your doctor, you take his advice don't you?'. Oh sorry, these aren't sales opportunities are they, forgot for a moment.


Green Deal Advisor Training
4 Day
£1,990.00 inc VAT

Qualification Title: Level 3 Diploma in Domestic Green Deal Advice.

Awarding Body: City & Guilds

Course Code: xxxx

This course is designed for new entrants wishing to enter the industry as a fully qualified Green Deal Advisor for Domestic properties. No previous experience is necessary.

During the 4 days classroom based training you will learn the methodologies behind producing a domestic Energy Performance Certificate along with how to produce a Green Deal Advice Report.

A portfolio of evidence based on five Energy Performance Certificates and three sample Occupancy Assessments will need to be produced by the candidate after attending the course in addition to sitting a short multiple choice test which is taken during the course with unlimited re-sits included.

Once qualified you will not only be able to produce Green Deal Advice Reports but also Energy Performance Certificates which are required when a property is sold, let, or when a Solar PV installation has taken place.

Be one of the first to qualify in this exciting new role!

Graham,
I'm a DEA (EPC's for sales and rentals) but not a GDA because the Green Deal I think won't work.
I've been a DEA for a couple of years now so perhaps could claim to be one of the more experienced.

I think your belittling of the qualification is a bit unfair. Yes some course are only four days and yes the exam is a multiple choice affair. But a portfolio needs to be compiled of (in the case of DEA) five assessments of all types of property, and they have to be spot on. The exam can be resat as often as you like but the pass level is 75% and each resit sets you back another wedge of money. On top of this assessments are regularly audited on an ongoing basis and every year a set amount of relevant CPD is mandatory (Continued personal development, knowledge updating) So to regard DEA's or GDA's as "four day course wonders" is perhaps a bit out of order. It's not as easy to qualify as it might appear, and not cheap either.

However plenty of people thinking this a good career opportunity are going to pay up and go for it only to be very sadly disappointed.
I promise you a gold mine it's not. Already too many DEA's out there chasing too little work. So GDA's who think they can fall back on EPC's if the Green Deal turns out to be a dud better think again.
I only do EPC's as a sideline as part of semi retirement.
Support a family or pay a mortgage on DEA or GDA earnings? Forget it, no chance.

Richie-from-the-Boro

Gloucester_Lad wrote: »

" I would love it to be better also. But just saying that repeatedly won't make it better"????

If not by repeatedly pointing out shortcomings how then will we make it better?
The poor souls left with no other option but this deal are not going to be well served, and that's very wrong.
Lets do what we can to make the Green Deal a good deal for everyone especially those who might have no other avenue for money saving efficiency improvements.

I largely think the poor souls who have no choice will go there anyway, however, they will if they read this site know in advance what it is they are getting. I'm in 100% agreement with you that unless the shortcomings, and there are many, are shouted loudly and frequently the scheme will never change, I mean why would it, they the government and the purveyors want no negatives to be voiced. If the like of you I and others are silenced we will go back to locusts and snake~oil~salesman.

I think the best way to get this dog of a deal improved is to not support it in it's current form.
Yes those who need help will wait longer but they won't be so badly ripped off and who's fault will the delay until improvement be anyway? Those who spotted and pointed out the bad parts of the deal or those who designed the bad deal in the first place?

Well the improved v2 Nationwide has begun, and the 14 or so million estimated retro-fit properties with a £7bn or so of tempting investment is too big a figure for others not to want a bite of that cherry. The scheme even in the 'soft launch' phase worried government and that was last summer, we will see by 2014 what happens. Essentially I agree with you, keep speaking out, I know I will, who else will defend the poor and vulnerable ? - one thing for sure the whole construct of the layers of GD actors from assessment to installer to the moneylenders in their temples charging 7% each must profit from the poor with a promise of manna now - pay later.

grahamc2003

Gloucester_Lad wrote: »

Graham,
I'm a DEA (EPC's for sales and rentals) but not a GDA because the Green Deal I think won't work.
I've been a DEA for a couple of years now so perhaps could claim to be one of the more experienced.

I think your belittling of the qualification is a bit unfair. Yes some course are only four days and yes the exam is a multiple choice affair. But a portfolio needs to be compiled of (in the case of DEA) five assessments of all types of property, and they have to be spot on. The exam can be resat as often as you like but the pass level is 75% and each resit sets you back another wedge of money. On top of this assessments are regularly audited on an ongoing basis and every year a set amount of relevant CPD is mandatory (Continued personal development, knowledge updating) So to regard DEA's or GDA's as "four day course wonders" is perhaps a bit out of order. It's not as easy to qualify as it might appear, and not cheap either.

However plenty of people thinking this a good career opportunity are going to pay up and go for it only to be very sadly disappointed.
I promise you a gold mine it's not. Already too many DEA's out there chasing too little work. So GDA's who think they can fall back on EPC's if the Green Deal turns out to be a dud better think again.
I only do EPC's as a sideline as part of semi retirement.
Support a family or pay a mortgage on DEA or GDA earnings? Forget it, no chance.

I'm not belittling it - I'm just the messenger that GDAs can be qualified by virtue of 4 days theoretical training. People can make their own judgement from that fact.

Professional qualifications in general take a minimum of 3 or 4 years at University followed by at least 5 years successfully on the job, just for comparison. Really, letting someone into your home with just 4 days theoretical training and expecting them to come up with some sort of critical and informed advice beyond which half the population already knows is really questionable. The training cannot go much further than which boxes to tick - for many, I expect that given the form the gda fills in, the householder could have filled it in at least as correctly, yet it appears there is no opportunity. I expect the advice will be generic, from software, deduced from ticks in boxes. It's very much a cartel protecting the interests of those within it. You can see the effects of that - 7% interests rates within the cartel, 2 or 3% interest rates outside it. I expect a similar differential for labour and capital costs.

A flaw I see is the approx £100 up front cost to access the scheme. Judging by posts on other forums, it looks like many people (probably those the scheme may appeal to), simply don't have £100 readily available, or even available at all. Does the scheme have provision for them?

Coulsdon_Town

Just one small point ; for those still interested in Green Deal, there appear to be a lot of pilot projects of some kind which are offering free assessments - limited numbers and first come, first served. E.g. there are 2000 in Surrey in selected areas only. Have a look at your borough/district/county website and also any 'green' quango or charity local to you.

grahamc2003 wrote: »

I'm not belittling it - I'm just the messenger that GDAs can be qualified by virtue of 4 days theoretical training. People can make their own judgement from that fact.

Professional qualifications in general take a minimum of 3 or 4 years at University followed by at least 5 years successfully on the job, just for comparison. Really, letting someone into your home with just 4 days theoretical training and expecting them to come up with some sort of critical and informed advice beyond which half the population already knows is really questionable. The training cannot go much further than which boxes to tick - for many, I expect that given the form the gda fills in, the householder could have filled it in at least as correctly, yet it appears there is no opportunity. I expect the advice will be generic, from software, deduced from ticks in boxes. It's very much a cartel protecting the interests of those within it. You can see the effects of that - 7% interests rates within the cartel, 2 or 3% interest rates outside it. I expect a similar differential for labour and capital costs.

A flaw I see is the approx £100 up front cost to access the scheme. Judging by posts on other forums, it looks like many people (probably those the scheme may appeal to), simply don't have £100 readily available, or even available at all. Does the scheme have provision for them?

Coulsdon_Town

"I like others believe that before the winter of 2013 is over we will either have a v2 v3 and maybe a v4 and v5 of the GD scheme, at which point it will begin hopefully to resemble something closer to what it could and should, and I wished had been, at birth."

While i disagree with much of what i would humbly call the green deal negativity, or more precisely the innacurate details asserted in the forum, i agree wholeheartedly with the above.

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

What in truth happened when Helen Saxon opened the thread, was swarms of salesmen descended like locusts brought here by their google analytics's sales opportunity spyware looking for a sale. MD's and company owners and the usual plethora of snake~oil~salesmen making their pitch - displaying their URL and encouraging threaders to make contact. The worst 3 now in number have had their account pulled and they are no longer with us. More than several others quietly pulled their threads and the # numbers rolled back to sequential. Debating the efficacy of the GD in relationship with alternatives was out of the question at that time.

Thankfully, the thread now debates the GD in terms of real cost benefit and highlights the little good .. .. .. lot bad aspects of what one poster aptly described as the CDv1. The unknown % of the 13 million unique users a month that visit the site and find this thread now at least have a view of both sides and if nothing else are aware of what pitfalls there are.

I like others believe that before the winter of 2013 is over we will either have a v2 v3 and maybe a v4 and v5 of the GD scheme, at which point it will begin hopefully to resemble something closer to what it could and should, and I wished had been, at birth.

Coulsdon_Town

"I wondered when the self-elevation of assessors would start. Whatever your personal very long and involved road to become an assessor"...

That seems rather unfair, and Richie-in-the-Boro seems to think the self-elevation has both started and ended. I've read the whole thread and never seen anything to suggest Ecodave is a DEA or a GDA. All he said was money-saving isn't his main motivation for being in this thread. I'm not one of the above either and i've said why (not confident i would be free to act ethically). My motivation was accurate information but not comprehensive - there are other angles covered better by others. As for my position, i still think
1) It's a good proposition for those who have no better option. however, there are many better options open to many of us.

2) Green Deal as it stands is, i hope, the start of this whole story. Hoping for more versions of Green Deal, some parallel schemes, more lenders, more tradesmen offering and promoting energy improvements to homes etc. etc.

grahamc2003 wrote: »

I wondered when the self-elevation of assessors would start. Whatever your personal very long and involved road to become an assessor, many totally unqualified people can become an assessor with only 4 days training, which includes the qualifying multi-choice test, which they helpfully tell you can be taken as many times as you like till you pass.

The 4 day is for complete beginners with no previous knowledge - as I said before, even if you don't know what a cavity wall is, 4,5 or 6 days later you can be an GD assessor.

And I doubt it will be long before a difficult sale will have a line such as 'if you go to your doctor, you take his advice don't you?'. Oh sorry, these aren't sales opportunities are they, forgot for a moment.


Green Deal Advisor Training
4 Day
£1,990.00 inc VAT

Qualification Title: Level 3 Diploma in Domestic Green Deal Advice.

Awarding Body: City & Guilds

Course Code: xxxx

This course is designed for new entrants wishing to enter the industry as a fully qualified Green Deal Advisor for Domestic properties. No previous experience is necessary.

During the 4 days classroom based training you will learn the methodologies behind producing a domestic Energy Performance Certificate along with how to produce a Green Deal Advice Report.

A portfolio of evidence based on five Energy Performance Certificates and three sample Occupancy Assessments will need to be produced by the candidate after attending the course in addition to sitting a short multiple choice test which is taken during the course with unlimited re-sits included.

Once qualified you will not only be able to produce Green Deal Advice Reports but also Energy Performance Certificates which are required when a property is sold, let, or when a Solar PV installation has taken place.

Be one of the first to qualify in this exciting new role!

Johnandabby

grahamc2003 wrote: »

I'm not belittling it - I'm just the messenger that GDAs can be qualified by virtue of 4 days theoretical training. People can make their own judgement from that fact.

Professional qualifications in general take a minimum of 3 or 4 years at University followed by at least 5 years successfully on the job, just for comparison. Really, letting someone into your home with just 4 days theoretical training and expecting them to come up with some sort of critical and informed advice beyond which half the population already knows is really questionable. The training cannot go much further than which boxes to tick - for many, I expect that given the form the gda fills in, the householder could have filled it in at least as correctly, yet it appears there is no opportunity. I expect the advice will be generic, from software, deduced from ticks in boxes. It's very much a cartel protecting the interests of those within it.

Well, 4 days classroom training PLUS distance learning courses on all the detailed requirements and information PLUS detailed evidence portfolio PLUS challenging exam with high pass grade.... Doesn't sound too much different from other qualifications now....

I really don't see why 3 years degree and 5 years experience would help here when dealing with basic energy issues - assessors would need to charge circa £500/day due to their experience and no-one would be able to afford an assessment.

Being a Chartered Engineer myself, and having done the EPC course 4 years ago, it's not a breeze and involves a lot of work.

If half the population knows what to do already, then why don't they just do it? Because they don't have the money, so overcharging for unnecessarily complicated assessments and overqualified assessors is not going to help in my opinion.

vik987

little advise..

My husband is a heating engineer, gas safe registered own company, we are looking into becoming a installer for green deal.

Is anyone does this already, is it worth it?

It seams very involved with the registration and paperwork before you can become registered /??

rogerblack

vik987 wrote: »

little advise..

My husband is a heating engineer, gas safe registered own company, we are looking into becoming a installer for green deal.

Is anyone does this already, is it worth it?

It seams very involved with the registration and paperwork before you can become registered /??

My limited understanding is that he can't alone.
He has to be part of a group of firms willing to do all work under the green deal - from solid wall to cavity installation, onwards.