MSE News: Green Deal launches to help insulate homes

Ecodave

new_owner wrote: »

Hi Ecodave

Thank you for the info but I have the original render on the house which I have decided would be criminal to loose. The cost is so high for doing it the pay back is to long

But it does bring me to the solar point

It is a great deal for those who got the payments. If my roof faced the correct way then I would have got them and benefitted from the feed in tariff.

But on a moral note is this the best use of tax payers money? Not judging as I would have jumped on it too, as an investment.

But based on £150 per year saving (which is very good) the pay back is still well over 20 years (guess on a cost of install of £3000 I suspect this is a little on the under side). I dont see this valid as part of any green deal.

How much do you think the cost of external wall insulation is? And as you get most of it on a grant, why wouldn't you look into it? Given that you end up paying only for a fraction of it, the time to payback will be ok.

There are still tariffs for solar. My panels would now attract about £300+ per year, with the same savings on electricity bills. Panels cost are probably higher than you think, but not much these days.

On the moral note, I think you have to decide for yourself if you do or don't want the governments money. Of course, if you don't take it, someone else will. If you are completely opposed to subsidy for energy then I presume you turn all your power of for the part of the day that nuclear power supplies the electricity???

new_owner

Ecodave wrote: »

On the moral note, I think you have to decide for yourself if you do or don't want the governments money. Of course, if you don't take it, someone else will. If you are completely opposed to subsidy for energy then I presume you turn all your power of for the part of the day that nuclear power supplies the electricity???

If I could qualify I would have got them so I dont begrudge anyone for doing it. But thats my money saving side talking.

But is this the best use of tax payers money?

As a recommendation on an epc based on the returns (without feed in) is it one you could make to someone? GD or no.

Why not put money into developing tidal energy...Since we cannot decide were to bury waste from our stations it was and is a doomed industry which promised the earth and gave 10,000 years waste in need of disposal.

But this has drifted off topic slightly.

Ecodave

Yes, you completely avoided any of the points I had raised.

If you just don't want to consider Green Deal then I have no problem with that, I don't expect it will suit everyone.. But why bother posting like you have, if, when options are provided for you, you can't be bothered replying?

I really don't get the compulsion to knock something, especially when you're not in full possession of all the facts.

new_owner

Sorry?

I did not miss the points.

External wall insulation is great if possible. In my case its not.

It would remove more value and history from the property than I would ever gain. I would hazard a guess to suggest you are working from the energy saving trust guidelines about the savings.

This was my point in a round about and not to clear way.

External wall insulation £475 saving based on a 3 bed house. Compaired to what?

Most of the information I have seen on older properties (which this is usually the case for external insulation) is incorrect about the U value. If this is wrong and the assessor is basing the recommendations on this the the returns are going to be much lower than expected.

So Take my house for example. a 400 saving on energy (External wall) would give me a yearly gas bill of £20 (now). I would even question the 40% figure I have seen.

Really!!

Based on who is doing this and the training they have had is going to depend on the numbers they work from.

I would also call into question the heat loss of older properties that the energy saving trust use.

If the data being feed to the home owner is incorrect then the whole scheme falls down, and for some as an expensive long term loss.

I agree with you on one point, that is for some people energy saving on the house, the only way they can afford to it is through this scheme. For good or bad.

Suggesting boilers, double glassing, solar or even cavity wall will not be the way forward.

I personally believe the cavity wall funding was ill thought out and the problems of this rush to fill every cavity in the country will cause more problems than anything else. I see this following in its foot steps.

Ecodave

You seem to have missed that you could still get a solar tariff. Or if you didn't miss it, you chose not to comment on it.

You seem to be in possession of information about u-values for solid walls that is not available to the professionals who have formulated the EPC calculations. I am sure they would be grateful if you could put them right on this issue.

I note from your last post that you have introduced the "history" of your solid wall, and as such, your reluctance to mess with rendering. As long as that rendering was done with consideration to the nature of the solid wall, then it is a more than reasonable point of view to leave it as is. Especially if it looks ok, which I presume it does.

I take it from the info in the middle of your post that your gas bill is £420 a year. You stated earlier that you had taken your own steps to reduce your bills, I don't suppose you would say what these were?

new_owner

Hi Ecodave

This is not an argument Just a slightly frustrated view. My apologies if this is how it comes across.

I choose not to comment on the tarif feed in as I am not sure what the current rates are. Depending on this could change the deal. But you mentioned £300+ which I assumed was the current deal.

This + the £150 you mentioned makes it a more promising offer. I would need to work out the maths based on 6.5% intrest on the GD Loan.

There has been a lot of work done (sure I posted a link the other day so I will have to find it) Showing the heat loss from older properties is not as bad as previously thought. OK it not a U value of 0.3 or even close. But still the savings need to be worked out correctly.

A £100 per year saving is not a saving if the cost for it is £2000+

I did mention in a couple of early posts about the render.

I am more than happy to discuss the changes I have made to my house to greatly reduce my energy costs. (Not sure this is the thread to do it but more than happy to) But only 1 of them was mentioned on the epc (energy saving bulbs) Still in 2 minds as LEDs need to last a few years to pay off themselves.

My gas bill a year ago was £500 between Nov and March (That was a shock). Now its £35 per month. I submit my readings every two weeks.

The GD has to be based off correct savings. I aslo worry that the emphasis will be put on new boilers etc without looking to find the low cost savings that can help home owners more. When people look for help a new boiler not always going to be the right answer yet the money is going to go towards this as this seems to be the answer for many companies inc The Energy Saving Trust.

EDIT:

Only time will tell if this is going to be a good offer or not. It will be interesting to watch. Hopefully it will mean i will stop having people turn up at the door asking if I want loft insulation and cavity wall

Ecodave

Likewise, I didn't feel like I was arguing with you. From my perspective, sometimes I feel the need to push people to explain their positions more fully, in order that I can find what is holding them back from what I see as an opportunity. If I pushed too hard, I apologise.

I feel that your last post provided quite a lot of detail that wasn't presented earlier. The £500 bill (nov to march) probably represents 80% of your yearly bill? So can I estimate your previous annual gas bill to be £625? You now pay on a monthly payment plan, which your energy company have asked you to pay £35 a month. So you have taken this to mean that your consumption in money terms this year is £420. A £200 saving. That may turn out to be correct, or the £35 a month figure could be an under-estimate on your energy companies part. The savings you may have achieved could be less than you think.

Also, what has happened to your electricity bill during this period? I don't suppose you have started using electric room heaters more since your shock from the £500 gas bill last year?

With regards to this being the correct channel for discussion of savings on energy bills, well I suppose it is a bit off topic, but it would be relevant to some who are considering Green Deal. That is up to you.

Let me assure you that the emphasis in Green Deal will be placed on insulation. Pointless improving your 70% efficient boiler to a 95% one if most of that energy is still going straight through the walls/roof.

By the way, DECC have just posted this about calculations in RdSAP......https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-savings-figures-are-calculated-under-the-green-deals-golden-rule

new_owner

A couple of links looking at the U values of Solid walls.

http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/hstp102011-u-values-and-traditional-buildings.pdf
http://www.spab.org.uk/downloads/TheSPABU-valueReportFINAL.pdf
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/content/publications/publicationsNew/energy-performance-certificates-historic-and-traditional-homes/ehwebadviceonepcsdec07se.pdf2.pdf
http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/paul_baker_thermal_performance_of_traditional_masonry_walls.pdf
One thing to notice is that there is a misconception with buildings to go off "desk" values.

Now typically an epc assessor would rate solid walls around 2.1-2.5 now with insulation this could be 0.3. However these are desk based values. If the walls had a current u-value of 0.7 then the expected savings are going to be around 9-10 times less than expected. This would be a massive disappointment for whoever went for this (Green Deal or not)

Now the other coman myth is that victorians houses did not not have cavities. This too is incorrect and might also be a better way to achieve a higher U value for the wall (risk of damp). But again this would mean that the U-value for the wall is incorrect.

The assessor will be using a hand book of recommended u-values and assessing the best way for you to save money. but if the current values are wrong then it can turn into a costly mistake for the poor home owner.

To clear up a couple of points;

My bill from Nov-Mar was £500 but this was end of Nov to the beginning of March, so 3 months. Which put my gas usage inline with the epc of around £1000 per year.

My bills after making some changes are £35 per month over the same period (ex Feb) so £35x3=105 I expect my gas bill to be around £350 for the year (I usually work off £400 as it easier and allows for colder/longer winters). (cook with gas)

So I have reduced my gas bill by 2 thirds.

By ignoring the epc recommendations to save money and the energy saving trusts figures, I deciding to more research. Total cost to me so far, around £2500 (this figure will go up by an extra £1000 as I am having my windows daft-proofed and repaired by a sash window company)

My reasoning for keeping the windows is that 80% of loss is through the heat through the windows is the drafts. Since we are only talking about 10% tops of the total heat loss through the house (this figure does not take into account curtains etc which bring that figure right down to the same point as double glassing as do wooden blinds) So a better way to look at this is 2% (10% total - 80% efficiency) heat loss after the windows have been properly draft-proofed for 6-8 hours a day. But for 16 hours a day (dark so curtains closed) you have the same efficiency as double glassing. OK if noise is a bigger factor then double glassing might be the way to go.

So total cost to me over 2 year £3500 this was all done in stages while I research each step. All of it done on a 0% card and some with cash back I still have not finished and I expect to reduce my cost further.

So payback, lets say I am saving 50% to account fo the rise of gas and electricity over the next 10 years. So a saving of £500 per year / £3500 total cost is a 7 year pay back. In actual fact the windows have not yet been done so but this is only going to be an estimated 8% saving (find out this year) and I still have not finished some of the work. I personally think this is going to be more around 5 years to pay back.

My Electricity Bill was not to bad but was still much higher than today. No electric heaters But an energy monitor found a expensive fridge that was on its last legs and the fitting of LED lights to replace all spots. The use of the standby plugs and extensions has reduced my elec down. Not sure if the LEDs will last the 10 years to pay the high cost of buying them but so far I have not had to replace one. Over winter its higher as the tumble dryer is on a few times a week.

The link you posted is interesting and I still need to read a little more. but the example of the repayment of the loan again will be linked to expected savings.

Ecodave wrote: »

Let me assure you that the emphasis in Green Deal will be placed on insulation. Pointless improving your 70% efficient boiler to a 95% one if most of that energy is still going straight through the walls/roof.
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I guess if this leads to a better database of heat loss and/or assessors carrying out a complete heat loss assessment before any recommendations then this would be the way forward and a positive outcome. Working any kind expected returns based on flawed data will only cause problems.

My fear will be that the need for internal/external insulation without measuring the wall to start with, a new boiler etc. This I feel was true of cavity wall insulation. Not all wall were suitable yet this did not stop some people, how many are going to cause problems is yet to be reveled (but if there are companies now specializing in removing it then I would say this figure is going up).


wow that was longer than I expected

Ecodave

Thanks for the links to the reports, which I found to be very informative. I noticed that the problems noted appear mostly where the wall in question is made of an inconsistent mix of materials. Do you know if this applies particularly to your house?

In the first report, only 4 of the walls measured would have a calculated u-value near the figure at 2.1 - 2,5 that you used as your example, the rest were significantly lower. The results of the in-situ tests on these 4 walls were 1.1 1.3 1.8 and 2.3, two of them on the border of the range that would have been calculated on an EPC, the other 2 out by a fair margin. The overall amount of discrepancy in the report though is significantly different to what you have presented.

Your comment about Victorian walls and cavities, are you saying that these would not be identified by an assessor? How many are there by the way, do you know? I must admit I don't, but I do know that the vast majority will be solid walls, and won't have cavities.

Looking at the figures you have provided, I can't see mentioned what you spent your first £2500 on,I would say this is crucial information, as I am not sure what else can account for the change in energy consumption at your house.

geoffky

I wonder how many people will be talked into it when not needed..
I have just had to intervene on behalf of my dad after some scumbag talked him into signing a loft insulation contract that they told him was free,When i read it it said materials nil insulation costs £250.....