MSE News: Green Deal launches to help insulate homes

Ecodave

If we use the figures you offered, the chances are that the Golden Rule may not be met, so you would need to introduce some other finance. The length of the plan would also be set at no longer than 10 years.

new_owner

Ecodave wrote: »

Of course you can pay for the boiler yourself and start saving that £175 a year, go for it. Of course some people don't have the luxury of having the £2500 in the bank to be able to do that. Many cant even get the finance. For some, it's not their house, and the landlord steadfastly refuses to upgrade the boiler. Lots of reasons why someone might want (maybe, need) to use the Green Deal.

This is the big issue. If its a way of giving those in financial difficulty a way of borrowing money at quite a high intrest rate for a very long period of time then how is that benefitting them.

I understand the need to reduce bills (carbon) but a better way would be finance at 3% (read very low) with the ability to pay off without penalty.

GD has not been well thought out and it will be interesting to see the uptake and long term affect. As I see it just puts more debt on those least able to afford it.

I dont really buy that the savings are going to offset the cost. The payback on anything costing over 2k is going to 10+ years.

Looking at the EPC's that are used at the moment are next to useless full of suggestions that will never save anyone any money.

Looking at mine the recommendations are;

new boiler
solar water heating
Double glassing
internal/external wall insulation
Solar photovoltaic panels

None of this will ever payback in any reasonable time scale and some of them, never.

I also wonder if this will stop the subsidising of insulation etc that was happening.

Richie-from-the-Boro

Transferring that cost to householders requires the retrofitting 80 existing buildings to a band A level EPC needs to happen every 60 minutes for the next 40 years. Its nothing more than a carbon trading scheme for individuals, brought in through the back door and directly paid for on interest accruing credit by homeowners, a kind of governmental individualised version of a PFI.

The UK has two critical legal obligations :

- eradicating fuel poverty by 2016
- an 80% reduction in greenhouse gases by 2050

Note01 : from HM Treasury and the tree hugging 'dems' part of the CONdems, thanks folks ......................................... again !

Note02 : management of the transitional promotional arm of the industry thanks Ecodave for his diligent and herculean one-man efforts to raise awareness .. .. your cheque is in the post Ecodave, less 7% interest, redeemable in 25 years.

Note3 : no seriously .. .. you are here, and other forums for one purpose only, to 'spread the word' about the new program. Paid, er no idea, but I must assume therefore you are for the moment. Like all seeming evangelist [ Join Date: 29-01-2013 ] first time posters again I assume you've been here before under a different nym. Thus far no attempt to get the unwary into private messaging and no hidden URL's in the contact info so behaviour is within the forum rules.

Best of luck on your quest Ecodave.

Ecodave

new_owner wrote: »

This is the big issue. If its a way of giving those in financial difficulty a way of borrowing money at quite a high intrest rate for a very long period of time then how is that benefitting them.

I understand the need to reduce bills (carbon) but a better way would be finance at 3% (read very low) with the ability to pay off without penalty.

GD has not been well thought out and it will be interesting to see the uptake and long term affect. As I see it just puts more debt on those least able to afford it.

I dont really buy that the savings are going to offset the cost. The payback on anything costing over 2k is going to 10+ years.

Looking at the EPC's that are used at the moment are next to useless full of suggestions that will never save anyone any money.

Looking at mine the recommendations are;

new boiler
solar water heating
Double glassing
internal/external wall insulation
Solar photovoltaic panels

None of this will ever payback in any reasonable time scale and some of them, never.

I also wonder if this will stop the subsidising of insulation etc that was happening.

It's not a method designed to extort money out of the poor. It's a way to allow everyone to improve their energy efficiency, without having to have the money upfront, and you can improve your house even if you can't get credit in the standard way. Would I prefer it to be at 3%, of course. I checked what amount I could get unsecured, and it was over 5%, so whilst 6.96% (the starting rate) is going to put many off, many are actually used to paying interest off at much higher rates. People who take it out will pay less for their energy overall, how exactly is this not benefitting them?

It's Interesting to note from the list of measures you provided that you could benefit greatly from the Green Deal. I guess that as you "don't buy that the savings are going to off-set the cost" you won't look any further into it.

The previous schemes under Cert and Cesp have now come to an end, and have been replaced by the Energy Company Obligation.

Ecodave

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

Transferring that cost to householders requires the retrofitting 80 existing buildings to a band A level EPC needs to happen every 60 minutes for the next 40 years. Its nothing more than a carbon trading scheme for individuals, brought in through the back door and directly paid for on interest accruing credit by homeowners, a kind of governmental individualised version of a PFI.

The UK has two critical legal obligations :

- eradicating fuel poverty by 2016
- an 80% reduction in greenhouse gases by 2050

Note01 : from HM Treasury and the tree hugging 'dems' part of the CONdems, thanks folks ......................................... again !

Note02 : management of the transitional promotional arm of the industry thanks Ecodave for his diligent and herculean one-man efforts to raise awareness .. .. your cheque is in the post Ecodave, less 7% interest, redeemable in 25 years.

I think this has been my favourite anti post (and there's plenty to choose from). It's slightly inaccurate, I doubt the requirement is to get all those houses to band A, but yes the numbers needing work, and how they break down, is quite scary. Of course, if the GD scheme wraps up tomorrow, we will still need to do all that work, we will just need to finance it differently.

I personally don't really care whether or not we actually meet those targets. For me they are arbitrary figures that whilst based on scientific methods, cant be relied upon to be sufficient to stop global warming, and may turn out to be over the top. I think most people with any knowledge of the industry feel that even the 2050 target, which is 37 years away, is unachievable. I do think it's important to be moving in the right direction. If the scientists thinking on mans affect on the environment turns out to be correct, I would like to think that we have at least been making strides in the right direction.

If only the cheque were in the post.

new_owner

Hi Ecodave

I dont see how I could benefit from the GD.

new boiler (My old boiler is working fine)

boiler cost £1500 to have fitted (pressure to low to have a combi). Saving say £75-£100 per year. 15 years pay back (ex gas price rise).

Now if my boiler broke thats a different story. But I could finance that on a 0% card.

solar water heating (roof faces the wrong way)
Double glassing (10% saving on energy vs loss of original sash)

So even if I decided to do this. This will save me around £100 per year, pay back around 100+ years.

internal/external wall insulation (loose original rendar)

This is it the one that I would be recommended. But again the payback is so long in the future that I would be no better off..

Solar photovoltaic panels (roof facing issue)

unless my maths are very wrong ;

Ecodave

Hi New-owner,

You know about the Energy Company Obligation, right?

I was thinking that you would get a grant for your solid wall insulation, then leverage in the finance for solar panels. I guess if your roof faces the wrong way then maybe not. Don't you have any roof with a slope facing vaguely south?

new_owner

Ecodave wrote: »

Hi New-owner,

You know about the Energy Company Obligation, right?

I was thinking that you would get a grant for your solid wall insulation, then leverage in the finance for solar panels. I guess if your roof faces the wrong way then maybe not. Don't you have any roof with a slope facing vaguely south?

I did look into grants for solid wall last year but was informed there were none for my area.

Unfortunately none of my roofs are south facing (i would stick a window in it )... But do you think solar pays?

What I did find is that the savings on the epc were wildly out. I have taken my own steps to reduce my carbon (bills) which were not mentioned in the epc, to great affect.

Ecodave

I would check again about solid wall insulation grants. The Energy Company Obligation works in tandem with the Green Deal. You will find that you will get the majority of the cost paid (and currently get an extra £650 cash back, which is in the form of a voucher that reduces the overall cost). The calculated savings are significant, and should allow some or all of the cost of a solar pv system to be included in the green deal.

I've got a 3.3Kwp solar pv system. My roof is south west facing and in my first year I will have had about £1300 in tariff payments from it, plus £150 reduction in electricity bill. I would say that's pretty good.

new_owner

Ecodave wrote: »

I've got a 3.3Kwp solar pv system. My roof is south west facing and in my first year I will have had about £1300 in tariff payments from it, plus £150 reduction in electricity bill. I would say that's pretty good.

Hi Ecodave

Thank you for the info but I have the original render on the house which I have decided would be criminal to loose. The cost is so high for doing it the pay back is to long

But it does bring me to the solar point

It is a great deal for those who got the payments. If my roof faced the correct way then I would have got them and benefitted from the feed in tariff.

But on a moral note is this the best use of tax payers money? Not judging as I would have jumped on it too, as an investment.

But based on £150 per year saving (which is very good) the pay back is still well over 20 years (guess on a cost of install of £3000 I suspect this is a little on the under side). I dont see this valid as part of any green deal.