PIP debate-live now

JS477

It's a troll try not to feed it.

satarical

dori2o wrote: »

Another idiot.

Just for your information, pain in medical terms isn't subjective, it can be, has to be and is measured. Without such measurement attempts at pain management wouldn't be possible.

Maybe you should research this information before spouting crap on the forum.

I was simply pointing out that severe discomfort or pain in your case, from a benefit claiming point of view cannot be measured by the DWP or indeed ATOS.
I could very well say that one of my conditions causes extreme pain as soon as I start to walk, which according to the DWP's A to Z of illnesses is an accepted thing. Should I be given an award because of that statement?

In reality the pain I have is much less severe due to the medication I take than I would expect it to be so I can walk quite well within reason.

Do I tell the truth and risk not getting the award or keep my mouth shut and get the award?

But you can see how possible it is for someone who knows that the DWP will be expecting severe and constant pain as a consequence of a condition just to say that, yes that is how it affects me. No one can prove it one way or another.

Medical report from GP? No problem - just make sure you tell your GP regularly that you can hardly move because of pain. Pain management - yes people will tell them anything to guarantee a good report - what was it I read once - yes, make sure you go to the GP regularly to get a good history of your difficulties - it helps when the DWP ask the GP for a report.

Pain, severe discomfort is too far open ended - it relies on the honesty of a claimant too much.

What I do know is that a lot of people would be prepared to say anything as long as it is at least a half truth and could never be proven.

finally I don't need to research pain management - I am already under the care of my local clinic. The biggest joke was when they asked me on a scale 1 to 10 how bad was the pain - honest answer that I gave - about 5, dishonest answer that I could have given - oh about 11!!

schrodie

satarical wrote: »

Pain, severe discomfort is too far open ended - it relies on the honesty of a claimant too much.

That's why as you've been told there is case law on the matter. Hard for you to comprehend I know but just accept that it has been dealt with.

WAT

dori2o

satarical wrote: »

I was simply pointing out that severe discomfort or pain in your case, from a benefit claiming point of view cannot be measured by the DWP or indeed ATOS.
I could very well say that one of my conditions causes extreme pain as soon as I start to walk, which according to the DWP's A to Z of illnesses is an accepted thing. Should I be given an award because of that statement?

In reality the pain I have is much less severe due to the medication I take than I would expect it to be so I can walk quite well within reason.

Do I tell the truth and risk not getting the award or keep my mouth shut and get the award?

But you can see how possible it is for someone who knows that the DWP will be expecting severe and constant pain as a consequence of a condition just to say that, yes that is how it affects me. No one can prove it one way or another.

Medical report from GP? No problem - just make sure you tell your GP regularly that you can hardly move because of pain. Pain management - yes people will tell them anything to guarantee a good report - what was it I read once - yes, make sure you go to the GP regularly to get a good history of your difficulties - it helps when the DWP ask the GP for a report.

Pain, severe discomfort is too far open ended - it relies on the honesty of a claimant too much.

What I do know is that a lot of people would be prepared to say anything as long as it is at least a half truth and could never be proven.

finally I don't need to research pain management - I am already under the care of my local clinic. The biggest joke was when they asked me on a scale 1 to 10 how bad was the pain - honest answer that I gave - about 5, dishonest answer that I could have given - oh about 11!!

I'm sorry, but that is absolute horseshit.



There are more pain scales than just the Visual Analogue Scale, which is the simplest adult based scale used in order to gain a baseline for pain, so the management programme can be based around it.

Theres also much more complex pain scoring systems, such as the McGill Pain Index, which is what my pain Dr uses, and what the last 2 pain Drs I have seen use.

It is a much more complex system than just asking for a score from one to ten.



This clearly shows different types of pain on the scale. Taken from an large sample these indicate the average score for each different type of pain.

You can clearly see that CRPS is at the top of that scale. That is the condition that I suffer from, the pain never goes away, when I complete the questionnaire I consistently score over above the level indicated on the chart. Strong opiate based medication does very little for the pain, no other combination of drugs has done anything to bring the pain levels down to acceptable levels, even Cannabis only works for a short while.

I've tried almost everything, Gabapentin, various TCA's, SSRI's, SNRI's, Tapentadol, LDN, Codeine,Tramadol, Methadone, Buprenorphine, Fentanyl, none of it provides sufficient relief that allows me to fully function.

After 20-30m of walking I'm finished, out of breath and in severe pain. I can push through it at times where I have no choice. But I am still in pain, still in severe discomfort, nothing and nobody can deny that.

The problem with you is that you have been denied the benefit. Rightly or wrongly, and your so blinded by that, that you believe nobody else should have it either.

I suggest you leave the discussion of pain/severe discomfort to those what actually know a bit about it. You certainly dont.

Richie-from-the-Boro

andyandflo/gemstar30/dioch/SueP1944/skcollob/sonorman/sardine/worriedwife/ parsons/hobbledehoy./cyclops/PETROLHEAD/oldestrocker/salot/trobert/tartane/ volintier/doberg/grumpybill/Rotoguys/and booted again on the 13th Jan this year when the name used was volintier

Richie-from-the-Boro

Pain in terms of the DLA now PIP descriptors has changed its useful-ness, it is/was argued for in the second draft here. You will notice however that the word discomfort never appears, even once in terms of PIP assessment criteria.

It will be interesting to see how much of the then case-law under the DLA rules & descriptors applies under the newly laundered PIP rules.

Pain encompasses a wide range of intensities from mild to severe. So someone in pain may not be suffering severe discomfort but a claimant may suffer severe discomfort without pain e.g. breathlessness. However someone in severe pain does suffer severe discomfort, severe discomfort being a lower concomitant of severe pain; doesn't mean "excruciating agony" and severe discomfort includes pain, fatigue and unease of all kinds.

Tribunals might for example take into account discomfort that arise from a subsequent bout of walking following a period of rest. Discomfort may not set in until later, discomfort does not necessarily become severe at the point at which the claimant is forced to stop walking. He or she may be in severe discomfort whilst walking. Discomfort both during the walking and any discomfort incurred as a result of walking that occurs after the walking has ceased. Severe discomfort has to be brought on by the act of walking and not by any other cause. Walking must be out of doors rather than some other factor. However this does not preclude someone who has severe discomfort prior to walking.

Then you need to take into the debate speed / medication / gait / time taken to recover from walking / type of surface / virtually / etc.

satarical

schrodie wrote: »

That's why as you've been told there is case law on the matter. Hard for you to comprehend I know but just accept that it has been dealt with.

WAT

Yes I know full well what case law is, albeit that it had nothing to do with Welfare - I used it in my job for 44 years!

At the end of the day, pain and severe discomfort as is well documented in case law, is one person's word against another.

There is no meter that attaches to your body that can read it, it is down to the honesty of the individual on how they choose to describe it - with honesty or otherwise. Some underplay the amount they endure whilst others exaggerate it. A few will be totally honest.

And don't tell me it can't be done - I have personal experience of knowing someone close that exaggerated it to such an extent that it is recorded with the GP, a pain clinic, their consultant and to top it all, they have even managed to convince a Social Worker who in turn managed to convince the DWP of it's extreme level which resulted in the highest award (day & night)!! In reality I would say that the actual position is about half of what everybody now believes it is.

satarical

dori2o wrote: »

I'm sorry, but that is absolute horseshit.



There are more pain scales than just the Visual Analogue Scale, which is the simplest adult based scale used in order to gain a baseline for pain, so the management programme can be based around it.

Theres also much more complex pain scoring systems, such as the McGill Pain Index, which is what my pain Dr uses, and what the last 2 pain Drs I have seen use.

It is a much more complex system than just asking for a score from one to ten.



This clearly shows different types of pain on the scale. Taken from an large sample these indicate the average score for each different type of pain.

You can clearly see that CRPS is at the top of that scale. That is the condition that I suffer from, the pain never goes away, when I complete the questionnaire I consistently score over above the level indicated on the chart. Strong opiate based medication does very little for the pain, no other combination of drugs has done anything to bring the pain levels down to acceptable levels, even Cannabis only works for a short while.

I've tried almost everything, Gabapentin, various TCA's, SSRI's, SNRI's, Tapentadol, LDN, Codeine,Tramadol, Methadone, Buprenorphine, Fentanyl, none of it provides sufficient relief that allows me to fully function.

After 20-30m of walking I'm finished, out of breath and in severe pain. I can push through it at times where I have no choice. But I am still in pain, still in severe discomfort, nothing and nobody can deny that.

The problem with you is that you have been denied the benefit. Rightly or wrongly, and your so blinded by that, that you believe nobody else should have it either.

I suggest you leave the discussion of pain/severe discomfort to those what actually know a bit about it. You certainly dont.

Do I not? That is a question that I don't wish to deal with.

But at the end of the day even using your method it still requires the patient to describe it.
Unless you are suggesting that every sufferer of CRPS suffers pain at that level.

satarical

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

Pain in terms of the DLA now PIP descriptors has changed its useful-ness, it is/was argued for in the second draft here. You will notice however that the word discomfort never appears, even once in terms of PIP assessment criteria.

It will be interesting to see how much of the then case-law under the DLA rules & descriptors applies under the newly laundered PIP rules.

Pain encompasses a wide range of intensities from mild to severe. So someone in pain may not be suffering severe discomfort but a claimant may suffer severe discomfort without pain e.g. breathlessness. However someone in severe pain does suffer severe discomfort, severe discomfort being a lower concomitant of severe pain; doesn't mean "excruciating agony" and severe discomfort includes pain, fatigue and unease of all kinds.

Tribunals might for example take into account discomfort that arise from a subsequent bout of walking following a period of rest. Discomfort may not set in until later, discomfort does not necessarily become severe at the point at which the claimant is forced to stop walking. He or she may be in severe discomfort whilst walking. Discomfort both during the walking and any discomfort incurred as a result of walking that occurs after the walking has ceased. Severe discomfort has to be brought on by the act of walking and not by any other cause. Walking must be out of doors rather than some other factor. However this does not preclude someone who has severe discomfort prior to walking.

Then you need to take into the debate speed / medication / gait / time taken to recover from walking / type of surface / virtually / etc.

Thank you and well put.

Yes I honestly believe in that context that someone somewhere has seen sense along the lines that I have been arguing and realised that the old DLA description has had to be dumped as it was too wide a descriptor. Thank goodness that PIP is correcting it's overuse and abuse.

dori2o

satarical wrote: »

Do I not? That is a question that I don't wish to deal with.

But at the end of the day even using your method it still requires the patient to describe it.
Unless you are suggesting that every sufferer of CRPS suffers pain at that level.

I assume reading is difficult for you. It must be.

The scale above was produced using a very wide sample over a number of years. You will see the index has no numbers on it to identify which sensation is worth the most points on the index, therefore by describing the pain, the Doctor can register a balanced indication of how severe the pain is. That is what the index was designed for. Not to describe by number or distance, but by words.

I'm not saying that every person who suffers from CRPS/Causalgia/RSD/Neuropathic pain suffers exactly the same effects with the same score, but this is the average. On average these chronic pain conditions are recognised in the medical world to be one of, if not the most severe, chronic pain conditions, with the avergage patient NEVER finding suitable pain relief.

Less than 30% of patients who suffer from these conditions will gain pain relief (of any kind, by any method) of 50% or more.

Using the McGill index, I have been able to plot the amount of pain relief I get from the majority of medications. The best I have had is approx 7% from my current meds, the worst <1%. On average for me medications give less than 5% pain relief.