PIP debate-live now

rogerblack

JS477 wrote: »

That's what was puzzling me! If the descriptor states between 1m and 20m then uses an example of a man who can initially manage 100m being given the enhanced rate confused the hell out of me, and still does!

What if you can manage with a stick 200m then after mange <20m??

Or what if you can manage 100m with a stick then after a period of rest have to go into a wheelchair to continue ?

All of the descriptors are without 'severe discomfort, in a repeatable and reasonable manner' - see the PIP provider guidance thread.

If you can move 200m, but afterwards cannot do this, even with a rest, and can only move 10m due to severe pain, then you do not match this descriptor. Can stand and then move more than 200 metres, either aided or unaided.
However, this does not mean you meet Can stand and then move more then 1 metre but no more than 20 metres, either aided or unaided.
If you can successfully repeatedly... do a lower scoring descriptor than the 'no more than 20m' - then this one will apply. Can stand and then move unaided more than 20 metres but no more than 50 metres. for example, if you can repeatedly... walk 40m, then rest for some time and do it again.
The '20m' descriptor will not apply if you can be described by a lower scoring descriptor.


In order, zero to maximum.

A Can stand and then move more than 200 metres, either aided or
unaided.
B Can stand and then move more than 50 metres but no more than
200 metres, either aided or unaided.
C Can stand and then move unaided more than 20 metres but no
more than 50 metres.
D Can stand and then move using an aid or appliance more than 20
metres but no more than 50 metres.
E Can stand and then move more then 1 metre but no more than 20
metres, either aided or unaided.
F Cannot, either aided or unaided. –
(i) stand; or
(ii) move more than 1 metre.

dori2o

rogerblack wrote: »

All of the descriptors are without 'severe discomfort, in a repeatable and reasonable manner' - see the PIP provider guidance thread.

If you can move 200m, but afterwards cannot do this, even with a rest, and can only move 10m due to severe pain, then you do not match this descriptor. Can stand and then move more than 200 metres, either aided or unaided.
However, this does not mean you meet Can stand and then move more then 1 metre but no more than 20 metres, either aided or unaided.
If you can successfully repeatedly... do a lower scoring descriptor than the 'no more than 20m' - then this one will apply. Can stand and then move unaided more than 20 metres but no more than 50 metres. for example, if you can repeatedly... walk 40m, then rest for some time and do it again.
The '20m' descriptor will not apply if you can be described by a lower scoring descriptor.


In order, zero to maximum.

A Can stand and then move more than 200 metres, either aided or
unaided.
B Can stand and then move more than 50 metres but no more than
200 metres, either aided or unaided.
C Can stand and then move unaided more than 20 metres but no
more than 50 metres.
D Can stand and then move using an aid or appliance more than 20
metres but no more than 50 metres.
E Can stand and then move more then 1 metre but no more than 20
metres, either aided or unaided.
F Cannot, either aided or unaided. –
(i) stand; or
(ii) move more than 1 metre.

I know what you are saying, but I still have this belief that this is not how it will be interpreted by the DWP or ATOS/Capita.

I'm speaking rather selfishly here and using my own circumstances to try and understand.

I cannot take a single step without being in 'severe discomfort'.

Therefore in theory I should be credited with the maximum points. I.e. I cannot move even 1 m without being in severe discomfort even whilst suing a walking stick OR crutches, even when swinging through. This is because the pain is already severe BEFORE starting the physical act of walking.

Under DLA, the fact I am in significant/severe pain before starting the physical act of walking, would mean that I am considered unable to walk under the DLA regulations.

However, I have to walk between 50 and 70m each time I go from my car to the lift and from the lift to my desk at work, and the same going the other way. Or from my desk to the toilet (approx 35m), vis-a-vis, etc

I am of the opinion (maybe incorrectly, but with the hindsight of past experiences) that by me simply walking this distance, regardless of pain, because I do it 'regularly' (maybe a couple of times each a day) the pain will be disregarded by the DM/HCP and I will not gain any points.

If I had to walk any further than I do in these situations, then I would use my scooter/wheelchair, whichever is appropriate.

JS477

rogerblack wrote: »

All of the descriptors are without 'severe discomfort, in a repeatable and reasonable manner' - see the PIP provider guidance thread.

If you can move 200m, but afterwards cannot do this, even with a rest, and can only move 10m due to severe pain, then you do not match this descriptor. Can stand and then move more than 200 metres, either aided or unaided.
However, this does not mean you meet Can stand and then move more then 1 metre but no more than 20 metres, either aided or unaided.
If you can successfully repeatedly... do a lower scoring descriptor than the 'no more than 20m' - then this one will apply. Can stand and then move unaided more than 20 metres but no more than 50 metres. for example, if you can repeatedly... walk 40m, then rest for some time and do it again.
The '20m' descriptor will not apply if you can be described by a lower scoring descriptor.


In order, zero to maximum.

A Can stand and then move more than 200 metres, either aided or
unaided.
B Can stand and then move more than 50 metres but no more than
200 metres, either aided or unaided.
C Can stand and then move unaided more than 20 metres but no
more than 50 metres.
D Can stand and then move using an aid or appliance more than 20
metres but no more than 50 metres.
E Can stand and then move more then 1 metre but no more than 20
metres, either aided or unaided.
F Cannot, either aided or unaided. –
(i) stand; or
(ii) move more than 1 metre.

Thanks Roger I really am grateful. However being somewhat brain-fogged at the moment I'm still unsure how that above explains the example in the PIP guidance of someone who can walk with a stick up to 100m but after that can only walk short steps of 20m is judged as being only able to stand and walk 20m and receives the enhanced rate.

What I can't quite grasp is what's the difference between the PIP guidance example and what you've said above viz.

"If you can move 200m, but afterwards cannot do this, even with a rest, and can only move 10m due to severe pain, then you do not match this descriptor. Can stand and then move more than 200 metres, either aided or unaided.

However, this does not mean you meet Can stand and then move more then 1 metre but no more than 20 metres, either aided or unaided."

Sorry to come over as a bit thick but I really am struggling with this issue.

rogerblack

JS477 wrote: »

Thanks Roger I really am grateful. However being somewhat brain-fogged at the moment I'm still unsure how that above explains the example in the PIP guidance of someone who can walk with a stick up to 100m but after that can only walk short steps of 20m is judged as being only able to stand and walk 20m and receives the enhanced rate.
.

To simplify - imagine that the descriptors are simple distance based, on the distance you can walk repeatably, reliably and safely without severe discomfort.

0 points - over 200m
6 points - up to 200m
10 points - up to 50m
12 points -up to 20m.

If you can walk 250m repeatedly, you get 0 points.
If you can walk 250m once, and after that only walk 10m, you don't meet the '200m' descriptor, as you can't do that repeatably.

However, because you can only walk 10m in this circumstance does not mean you automatically meet the '20m' discriptor.

This is because you can walk 60m repeatedly, so the 6 point 'up to 200m' descriptor applies.

The '20m' descriptor would only apply if you cannot walk 20m in a repeated and reliable manner, severe discomfort.

schrodie

Like JS et al I'm having difficulty is understanding the reason why Descriptor E was given to the man in the Worked example 2 in the PIP guidance!

I've read it and read it over agin but just cannot work out the rationale as to the awarding of the E descriptor.

As someone has said above what if every step you take is painful due to e.g. arthritis of the feet or toes or whatever. If these descriptors are predicated on being able to carry them out without pain or discomfort then if every step is painful but you can for example just manage 50m albeit slowly and with a stick then have to get into a wheelchair to carry on or take a long break to recover will you get Descriptor E awarded?

I thought these documents were supposed to be written in plain English!!!!

schrodie

rogerblack wrote: »

To simplify - imagine that the descriptors are simple distance based, on the distance you can walk repeatably, reliably and safely without severe discomfort.

0 points - over 200m
6 points - up to 200m
10 points - up to 50m
12 points -up to 20m.

If you can walk 250m repeatedly, you get 0 points.
If you can walk 250m once, and after that only walk 10m, you don't meet the '200m' descriptor, as you can't do that repeatably.

However, because you can only walk 10m in this circumstance does not mean you automatically meet the '20m' discriptor.

This is because you can walk 60m repeatedly, so the 6 point 'up to 200m' descriptor applies.

The '20m' descriptor would only apply if you cannot walk 20m in a repeated and reliable manner, severe discomfort.

Thanks for the example Roger.

I think I can see where you get the 60m from but rather than make an idiot (as always) of myself could you explain how you get that figure? And what [similar] scenario would lead to descriptor E being the final selection?

rogerblack

schrodie wrote: »

Thanks for the example Roger.

I think I can see where you get the 60m from but rather than make an idiot (as always) of myself could you explain how you get that figure? And what [similar] scenario would lead to descriptor E being the final selection?

60m was just the imaginary distance which you can repeatably, ... walk.
If the distance you can usually walk was 19m.

schrodie

rogerblack wrote: »

60m was just the imaginary distance which you can repeatably, ... walk.
If the distance you can usually walk was 19m.

I thought it was (250m-200m) +10m = 60m

Sorry to be a pain but how did you get the imaginary figure of 60m then?

rogerblack

schrodie wrote: »

I thought it was (250m-200m) +10m = 60m

Sorry to be a pain but how did you get the imaginary figure of 60m then?

Picked out of the air for an imaginary claimant that can walk that distance repeatably and reliably.
Clearly, this could vary from 0-200m for different people.

schrodie

rogerblack wrote: »

Picked out of the air for an imaginary claimant that can walk that distance repeatably and reliably.
Clearly, this could vary from 0-200m for different people.

Oh I see.:o

So it seems then that you can still be able to walk (with some pain etc) as per the Worked Example 150m and still get the Enhanced Rate of Mobility PIP.

What I don't understand is how!


And if every step is painful to take will you get the Enhanced Rate because the guidance says without pain or discomfort?